Bruno wrote:

*"(JM)...Finally: I hope what you deem "computational" is not restricted to
a numbers-based mathematical lingo -*

It is, by definition. *((ONE definition you happen to choose - JM))*

*(JM:)"...rather a sophisticational ways of arriving at conclusions by ANY
ways we may, or may not even know (com - putare). *

That is not computability, but provability, or inductive inference, which
are indeed NOT
universal. There are as many ways to get conclusion than there exist
thinking creatures.
That is why Church thesis is truly miraculous. Limiting us on the
arithmetical reality, all
theories gives different theorems, but for computability (on any effective
domain) all
languages gives exactly the same class of computable functions.
Bruno

*JM: Please, forget now about 'provability' WITHIN mathematics-related
theories. *
*My parenthesis (com-putare) refers to the language-origin of the word: *
*PUT together AND **THINK about it. That MAY include math, or other ways
of *
*thinking. Maybe ways we do **not even know about at our present
development. *
*(You basically seem to be open for such). *
*John M*


On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 7:27 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
> On 21 Dec 2013, at 17:36, John Mikes wrote:
>
> Dear Edgar Owen: thanks for a post with reason. I am sorry to be too old
> to read your (any?) book so I take it from your present communication. You
> wrote  among others:
>
> *"...Modern science has a major lacuna, the notion that all of reality is
> mathematical, that prevents science from grasping the complete nature of
> reality. In truth all of reality is logical, as is software, and the
> mathematics is just a subset of the logic. After all, modern science with
> its misguided insistence that all of reality is mathematical, has had
> nothing useful to say about the nature of either consciousness or the
> present moment, the two most fundamental aspects of experience. However I
> present a computational based information approach to these in my book
> among many other things..."*
>
>  I doubt if we can have knowledge about "reality" at all, especially "the
> complete nature of it".
> I presume (hope?) you do not limit 'logical' to our present human logic?
>
> I arrived by speculating on the diverse facets of different authors what
> they call (their) coinsciousness a *"response to relations"* irrespective
> of the performer.
> Your other inconnu: *the present moment *appeared in my speculations to
> cut out "TIME" from the view we carry about our existence (I was
> unsuccessful).
>
> Finally: I hope what you deem *"computational" *is not restricted to a
> numbers-based mathematical lingo -
>
>
> It is, by definition.
>
>
>
> rather a sophisticational ways of arriving at conclusions by ANY ways we
> may, or may not even know (com - putare).
>
>
> That is not computability, but provability, or inductive inference, which
> are indeed NOT universal. There are as many ways to get conclusion than
> there exist thinking creatures.
> That is why Church thesis is truly miraculous. Limiting us on the
> arithmetical reality, all theories gives different theorems, but for
> computability (on any effective domain) all languages gives exactly the
> same class of computable functions.
>
> Bruno
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> The fundamental nature of reality is examined in detail in my recent book
>> on Reality available on Amazon under my name.
>>
>> Marchal is on the right track, but reality consists not just of numbers
>> (math) but is a running logical structure analogous to software that
>> continually computes the current state of the universe. Just as software
>> includes but doesn't consist only of numbers and math, so does reality. In
>> fact the equations of physical science make sense only when embedded in a
>> logical structure just as is the case in computational reality.
>>
>> Modern science has a major lacuna, the notion that all of reality is
>> mathematical, that prevents science from grasping the complete nature of
>> reality. In truth all of reality is logical, as is software, and the
>> mathematics is just a subset of the logic. After all, modern science with
>> its misguided insistence that all of reality is mathematical, has had
>> nothing useful to say about the nature of either consciousness or the
>> present moment, the two most fundamental aspects of experience. However I
>> present a computational based information approach to these in my book
>> among many other things.
>>
>> The second clarification that needs to be made to the post on Marchal's
>> work is that human math and logic are distinct from the actual math and
>> logic that computes reality. The human version is a generalized and
>> extended approximation of the actual that differs from the actual
>> logico-mathematical structure of reality in important ways (e.g. infinities
>> and infinitesimals which don't actually exist in external reality).
>>
>> I can explain further if anyone is interested, or you can read about it
>> in my book...
>>
>> Edgar Owen
>>
>>
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