On 24 Dec 2013, at 16:16, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
Bruno,
OK. Glad we agree, pretty much, on defining reality. Sorry for
thinking otherwise.
However you state that "This (reality is entirely computational) is
logically impossible. If reality is computational, then I am
computational, but if I am computational, the UDA shows that
reality, whatever it is, cannot be entirely computational."
But this doesn't follow. Again you are trying to apply the results
of a specialized theorem of HUMAN math
I use only simple arithmetic in the final TOE. I use also
computationalism to justify the final TOE, which by itself does not
use computationalism per se.
I assume that simple arithmetical propositions does not depend on
human's belief.
"17 is prime" does not depend on me and you. It is true for all
creature, thinking or not.
If you pretend to doubt this, I will have serious doubt about anything
you could say, as "17 is prime" is for me far simple and general than
any other kind of propositions. We need such type of proposition to
just define what is a computation.
to the computational logic of reality without thinking about whether
it's really applicable. I agree that we are computational
So, you would say yes to a digital doctor ?
but that most certainly doesn't mean that reality isn't. Why would it?
Because the first person indeterminacy is not computable, nor is its
domain, and the physical laws rely on this.
I am afraid you might need to add some chapters in the second edition
of your book :)
You seem to assume that all of reality including us is computational
but that that assumption leads to a contradiction proving the
premise that all of reality is computational is incorrect. But you
haven't shown any such contradiction.
I have explained it many times on this list (and have defended it in
my PhD, it is an old story).
Scientists have no problem with this, except when they do philosophy
in the coffee room ...
It is not difficult to grasp, but it asks for some work. I can explain
it to you if you want. It is contained in the first halve of the
sane2004 paper.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html
Again the entirety of reality MUST be computational, otherwise it
could never even happen as there is no way for something to happen
other than it being computed.
But to define computation, you need to be realist on some part of
arithmetic, including some non computable arithmetical assertions,
that we can prove to exist.
Bruno
On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 7:48:24 AM UTC-5, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
All,
Both Roger and Bruno took issue with my definition of reality to
include theories about reality. But the proper definition of reality
is that reality includes everything that exists and theories of
reality most certainly exist. Roger and Bruno seem to be coming from
the old dualistic definition of reality in which some things
(generally the 'physical' world) are real and some things aren't
real (generally thoughts e.g. about the physical world).
While this dualistic definition of reality may be useful in daily
life it fails on the philosophical level. In truth the entirety of
reality is computational and both 'physical' events and mental are
both part of that same single computational nexus. Roger gives the
example of hitting a table with his fist as something that is real
as opposed to a theory about reality which isn't but in fact the
reality of the experience of both is electrical signals (information
computations) in the brain. They are both computations in the brain.
The proper definition is that everything that exists is real and
therefore part of reality. Everything that exists is a
computationally evolving information state in reality and that is
why it is real, however its reality is exactly what it actually is,
what its computational forms actually are, and this is true for
everything including both what our minds interpret as 'physical'
events and 'mental'. If you must make that distinction then of
course everything without exception in our thoughts and experience
is mental, but the deeper truth is that its all computationally
evolving information however it's interpreted by our minds.
Thus the only philosophically consistent definition of reality
includes everything that exists without exception, including
thoughts and theories.
But there is a deeper truth here in that reality itself exists
independently of its particular contents as a thing in itself. In
fact prior to the big bang it was empty of any actualized
information at all, but it still existed in a state similar to a
generalized quantum vacuum.
This reality itself is what makes the computations that occur within
it real and actual and have being, it is what gives them life. It is
what I call 'Ontological Energy' which is simply the (non-physical)
space of reality whose presence manifests as the present moment in
which we and everything exists. All the computationally evolving
information that exists exists like waves, ripples and currents in
the sea of existence itself, in the ocean of ontological energy, the
logical space or locus of reality and actuality.
Reality is a single ocean of ontological energy and everything that
exists exists as a computationally evolving information form within
it. There is nothing outside of it because there is no outside.
Therefore there is no possibility of anything being 'not real' or
not part of reality. There is only the different categories of
reality of different information forms within reality.
Edgar
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