On Jan 13, 2014, at 9:21 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:

> Terren,
> 
> No, it's not a contradiction. Because present time just is and always has 
> been without anything happening prior to the big bang. Only when clock time 
> began to be computed as happening originated at the big bang was there a 
> measure of time, or rather a time that could be measured by things called 
> clocks. Just because the universe has always existed and was never created 
> doesn't mean time is infinite. Infinite is a measure, and there was no 
> measure of time in a present moment prior to when clock time began to be 
> computed at the big bang. All there was was an unactualized generalize 
> quantum vacuum with no measure because nothing was yet happening.
> 
> Edgar
> 
> On Monday, January 13, 2014 11:57:13 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote:
> Edgar,
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 8:32 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
> Jason,
> 
> To answer your questions.
> 
> Reality must be finite. When the definition of infinity as an unreachable 
> non-terminable PROCESS (keep adding 1 forever) is clearly understood it is 
> obvious that nothing actual can be infinite. There is no getting around this. 
> Nothing real can be infinite....
> 
> 
> This, combined with your insistence on a fundamental time, represents a 
> contradiction, since if existence has always existed then time is infinite. 
> Since time is actual in your theory... 
> 
> Terren
>  
> Reality was never created. Non-existence cannot exist, therefore existence 
> (something) has always existed. This is the fundamental self-necessitating 
> axiom of reality upon which all others stand. It is the ultimate bottom 
> turtle (along with the axiom that the universe is logical). Therefore there 
> is no necessity of a creator nor a creation event.
> 
> The big bang was an ACTUALIZATION event, not a creation event, out of a 
> generalized quantum vacuum (my ontological energy) which was originally 
> formless but contained all the possibilities able to be actualized. With the 
> big bang forms became real and actual and the universe was born and the 
> computational universe began computing its ongoing evolution....
> 
> Edgar
> 
Edgar,
 
Isn’t this just the reification fallacy?  From Wikipedia:  Reification (also 
known as concretism, or the fallacy of misplaced concreteness) is a fallacy of 
ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is 
treated as if it were a concrete, real event, or physical entity. In other 
words, it is the error of treating as a concrete thing something which is not 
concrete, but merely an idea.

William
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Friday, January 10, 2014 10:23:39 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
> Liz,
> 
> I think Edgar's computational reality can be consistent with the 
> computational theory of mind if you somehow constrain reality to be small and 
> finite.
> 
> The moment you let the universe be very big (eternal inflation) then you also 
> get an infinite number of computers built by aliens in distant galaxies, any 
> of which might be simulating you, and the same consequences Bruno points out 
> apply.
> 
> My question to Edgar is why do you believe reality is finite? This seems to 
> contradict a number of current scientific theories.
> 
> Also, when do you believe reality was created?  And how do you explain it's 
> origins?
> 
> Jason
> 
> On Jan 9, 2014, at 10:35 PM, LizR <liz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 10 January 2014 17:19, meekerdb <meek...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On 1/9/2014 7:07 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
>>> No Liz, I told you what it IS. It's the happening in computational space 
>>> that enables computations to take place since something has to move for 
>>> computations to occur. All it DOES is provide the processor cycle for 
>>> computations.
>>> 
>>> You seem to be nit picking...
>>> 
>>> Edgar
>>> 
>>> On Thursday, January 9, 2014 9:56:19 PM UTC-5, Liz R wrote:
>>> No you spent them telling me what it does. I'd like to know what it is.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10 January 2014 15:54, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>>> Common Liz, I just spent the last number of posts telling you and Stephen 
>>> what it is... Don't make me repeat myself...
>> 
>> I don't know why there is this concern about Edgar's computations.  It's 
>> seems very much like Bruno's, except Bruno's Universal computer is running 
>> all possible programs (by dovetailing). The time that appears on clocks is a 
>> computed ordering relation which is conjugate to the conserved quantity 
>> called "energy".
>> 
>> Bruno's dovetailer is supposedly running (if that's the word) in an abstract 
>> space, while Edgar's processor units are, as far as one can tell, intended 
>> to be in some sense physical. It's clear what Bruno's ontology is based on, 
>> he makes it explicit in his axioms. It isn't clear what Edgar's ontology is 
>> based on - he seems to be assuming that time and some form of computation 
>> are fundamental properties of the universe, but not what those computers are 
>> running on (by Turing equivalence, I assume they COULD be running on a 
>> desktop PC in some other universe) or what his "universal present moment" 
>> consists of - is it a linear dimensio, say? But then it appears to be 
>> quantised, since it only supports discrete computational steps. Can time be 
>> quantised? What are the implications? Do things like the Landauer limit come 
>> into his theory?
>> 
>> The concern is, I suspect, due to...
>> 
>> a) a lack of rigour, either logical or mathematical, in describing the theory
>> b) a lack of testable results, or indications of how one gets from the 
>> theory to the observed reality
>> c) a bad attitude
>> 
>> 
>> 
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