On 14 Jan 2014, at 18:44, Stephen Paul King wrote:
Dear Bruno,
I disagree. A universal number is still a number and this is an
idea of a mind.
This contradicts your admission, if I remember correctly, that "23 is
prime" is true or false independently of us.
"2+2=4" is infinitely conceptually simpler than anything involving a
"mind", which is what we want to explain.
I think that you confuse just numbers, and human's idea of number,
which indeed are an idea of the human mind. If not, comp does not make
sense at the start, and your critics is on the "step zero".
Even if such a mind is degenerate in that it cannot be ever complete,
All machine's (even in weaker sense that the comp sense) can ever be
complete. Only complex non computable sets can be semantically complete.
it still have finite subsets that are indistinguishable from finite
minds. The eternal running of the UD is such a eternal process.
Replace the Parmenides' Being with Heraclitus' Becoming and Plato is
correct.
It is far easier to explain becoming, in the indexical way, from some
being than making "becoming" primitive.
If becoming and mind are primitive, you are back to dualism or a form
of idealism.
We cannot forget that numbers, like any other representation can
be self-defining and thus the mind in the numbers is the mind that
contains the numbers,
No. .... the mind that is contained in the relation of the number with
its (probable) universal neighboring numbers.
thus it is only neutral when both it and its infinite physical
implementations vanish into the Void.
Only the Void is neutral.
Only in your quite idiosyncratic way, sorry. And "void" needs to
assume some notion of "things" that you must make precise so that we
know what the void is empty of.
Bruno
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 14 Jan 2014, at 17:31, Jason Resch wrote:
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 4:39 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 14 Jan 2014, at 06:47, Jason Resch wrote:
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 9:38 PM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>
wrote:
Jason,
A good question, that's why I've already listed a number of the
most basic axioms and concepts of the theory.
Okay, thanks. Could you clarify which are axioms (assumptions)
and which are the ones derived from those axioms?
1. Existence must exist because non-existence cannot exist.
2. Reality is a logically consistent and logically complete
structure.
3. The theory must be consistent with and attempt to explain all
the actual equations of science insofar as they are known and
valid, but NOT the interpretations of those equations. It must be
consistent with the actual science (the equations) but not with
the interpretations of the science, which in my view is often
completely wrong.
4. Reality is an evolving computational structure which
continually computes the current state of the universe.
5. This reality consists only of evolving information rather than
a physical, material world.
6. These computations produce a real universe state with real
effects because they run in reality itself, in the logical space
and presence of existence, what I call ontological energy.
7. What actually exists is all that can or could exist. The
existence of reality as it actually is conclusively falsifies all
other possible realities. Thus the past is the only possible past
that could have existed because it is the only one that does
exist. Thus the original extended fine tuning is the only one that
is possible because it is the only one that is actual.
8. Reality exists only in a present moment. Reality must be
present to be real. It's presence manifests as the present moment
in which we all exist.
etc. etc. etc. There are hundreds of other basic concepts... Which
come from which you can judge...
If they are all axioms, then none of them should come from any
other, as then it wouldn't be an assumption but a deduction. For
example, in the first one you say "existence must exist because
non-existence cannot exist". It would seem then that "non-
existence cannot exist" is an axiom, and from that it follows that
existence must exist. Regarding the second point, I understand
what you mean by logically consistent but what do you mean by
logically complete?
The whole last part of my book, Part VII, is a concise summary of
the basic axioms and concepts of the whole theory. It's as close
to a formal presentation of the theory as I have.
This reminded me of the 14 points Godel wrote that defined his
philosophy. His were:
The world is rational.
Human reason can, in principle, be developed more highly (through
certain techniques).
There are systematic methods for the solution of all problems
(also art, etc.).
There are other worlds and rational beings of a different and
higher kind.
The world in which we live is not the only one in which we shall
live or have lived.
There is incomparably more knowable a priori than is currently
known.
The development of human thought since the Renaissance is
thoroughly intelligible (durchaus einsichtige).
Reason in mankind will be developed in every direction.
Formal rights comprise a real science.
Materialism is false.
Unfortunately, Gödel still believed in the weak materialism, and so
was skeptical and hesitating on Church thesis and computationalism.
He missed the consequences,as Einstein (and himself) missed Everett.
The higher beings are connected to the others by analogy, not by
composition.
Concepts have an objective existence.
There is a scientific (exact) philosophy and theology, which deals
with concepts of the highest abstractness; and this is also most
highly fruitful for science.
Religions are, for the most part, bad– but religion is not.
All points are consistent with comp. But comp makes stronger
statement: 10 becomes "Weak materialism" is false, for example.
Bruno
Bruno,
What is the distinction between materialism and weak materialism? I
tried to search on Google but found no clear answer. Thanks.
Weak materialism is the belief in primitive matter, or the belief
that matter must be assumed, and is not a derivable emerging notion.
Both dualist and material-monist are weak materialist.
I would prefer to call that "materialism" simply. But I am forced to
add "weak" because the term "materialism" in philosophy of mind has
a different meaning. It means "belief in *only* matter", the rest
being emergent. It is opposed to dualism, which is weak materialism
and weak mentalism. Materialism, in philosophy of mind is a material
or physical monism.
To sum up:
weak materialism = belief in primitive matter.
weak idealism = belief in primitive ideas
materialism = belief in only matter
idealism = belief in only ideas.
Comp is eventually neutral monist, unless you classify numbers as
ideas, but this is misleading, because with comp we define basically
a (mental) idea by a number (code) interpretable by a universal
number.
Bruno
Jason
Your point 2 sounds like Godel's first point, and your fifth one
sounds like Godel's 10th.
Jason
Edgar
On Monday, January 13, 2014 9:55:38 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
Edgard,
You've described the conclusions you've come to in theory, but not
what you are assuming at the start. So what are those minimal
assumptions you took as true at the start which led to your other
deductions?
Thanks,
Jason
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 8:23 PM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>
wrote:
Jason,
I've already presented a good part of my theory repeatedly in
considerable detail giving good logical arguments. The only
'jargon' I've used is the single neologism 'ontological energy'
which I've defined clearly.
I can't help it if reality is a difficult subject. What frustrates
me is not the disagreements which are to be expected but
disagreements based on misunderstanding of what I've stated quite
clearly and people thinking I've said the exact opposite. That is
most certainly not a problem with the explanations but with the
reading....
Edgar
On Monday, January 13, 2014 9:13:05 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>
wrote:
Liz,
Sigh.... Now we have several people complaining because I haven't
offered a 'formal theory'.
A first (and great) step would be just to explain in clear normal
language (no jargon) what you assume, and what you derive from
those assumptions. You don't have to give us a bunch of equations.
Jason
However not a single one of the complainers has themselves offered
a formal theory even though they are continually offering theories
of their own, none of which are formalized. Is that fair?
The only person on this group who has a formal theory that I'm
aware of is Bruno. No one else? You don't have one of your own but
you are criticizing me because I don't have one?
What you guys don't seem to understand is that whether a theory
accurately describes reality or not is a much more important
criterion than whether that theory is formalized or not. Physics
described reality quite accurately for years before it reached its
current degree of formalization and that's why it was accepted.
Doesn't really matter whether you have a formal theory or not if
there is no connection to reality now does there? Bruno's theory
is apparently quite tightly formalized but I see none of the
required actual consistency with reality to indicate it actually
applies to reality at all.
Bruno's theory may itself be logically consistent, but I see no
consistency with actual reality. Mine on the other hand is
entirely consistent with actual reality because it clearly states
that the computations of its computational reality are precisely
what is actually necessary to compute the real processes of
nature, whatever they are.
Bruno's on the other hand makes the wild and unsubstantiated
assumption that all possible math is 'out there' in reality
somehow even if it's doing nothing. A very improbable assumption
there is no empirical evidence for whatsoever. Doesn't matter in
the least if the logical consequences of that initial assumption
are tight and valid (a formalized theory) if the assumption itself
isn't.
I just hope you guys understand what I'm saying is a basis of
scientific method. Doesn't matter so much if a theory is
formalized. What matters is its explanatory power and consistency
with actually observed phenomena.
Edgar
My theory on the other hand takes
On Monday, January 13, 2014 4:52:34 PM UTC-5, Liz R wrote:
On 14 January 2014 04:31, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> wrote:
Stephen,
It's not 'ideal monism'. Trying to shoehorn it won't help you
understand it.
Just take the pure information content of everything that exists
out of the 'things'. You have pure information. Now assume that
information is continually evolving to compute the current state
of reality. Where does it exist and evolve? Not in a physical
world, but in the presence of reality itself. Only because there
is something that exists called reality which supports these
computations do they become real and actual...
Ooh, "It from bit!"
If you want to take the pure information content out of things,
you have to explain what that means. Try a simple example. An
electron, perhaps? The information content is an electric charge,
a mass, a spin. I think that's all, isn't it? So, what does it
mean for that information to be extracted, where does it live, how
does it evolve, etc? Over to you!
We can move on to "the presence of reality itself" once we have a
formal definition or worked examples (or SOMETHING) for the
information part.
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