On 14 Jan 2014, at 06:47, Jason Resch wrote:




On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 9:38 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:
Jason,

A good question, that's why I've already listed a number of the most basic axioms and concepts of the theory.

Okay, thanks. Could you clarify which are axioms (assumptions) and which are the ones derived from those axioms?


1. Existence must exist because non-existence cannot exist.
2. Reality is a logically consistent and logically complete structure.
3. The theory must be consistent with and attempt to explain all the actual equations of science insofar as they are known and valid, but NOT the interpretations of those equations. It must be consistent with the actual science (the equations) but not with the interpretations of the science, which in my view is often completely wrong. 4. Reality is an evolving computational structure which continually computes the current state of the universe. 5. This reality consists only of evolving information rather than a physical, material world. 6. These computations produce a real universe state with real effects because they run in reality itself, in the logical space and presence of existence, what I call ontological energy. 7. What actually exists is all that can or could exist. The existence of reality as it actually is conclusively falsifies all other possible realities. Thus the past is the only possible past that could have existed because it is the only one that does exist. Thus the original extended fine tuning is the only one that is possible because it is the only one that is actual. 8. Reality exists only in a present moment. Reality must be present to be real. It's presence manifests as the present moment in which we all exist.

etc. etc. etc. There are hundreds of other basic concepts... Which come from which you can judge...

If they are all axioms, then none of them should come from any other, as then it wouldn't be an assumption but a deduction. For example, in the first one you say "existence must exist because non- existence cannot exist". It would seem then that "non-existence cannot exist" is an axiom, and from that it follows that existence must exist. Regarding the second point, I understand what you mean by logically consistent but what do you mean by logically complete?


The whole last part of my book, Part VII, is a concise summary of the basic axioms and concepts of the whole theory. It's as close to a formal presentation of the theory as I have.


This reminded me of the 14 points Godel wrote that defined his philosophy. His were:

The world is rational.
Human reason can, in principle, be developed more highly (through certain techniques). There are systematic methods for the solution of all problems (also art, etc.). There are other worlds and rational beings of a different and higher kind. The world in which we live is not the only one in which we shall live or have lived.
There is incomparably more knowable a priori than is currently known.
The development of human thought since the Renaissance is thoroughly intelligible (durchaus einsichtige).
Reason in mankind will be developed in every direction.
Formal rights comprise a real science.
Materialism is false.
Unfortunately, Gödel still believed in the weak materialism, and so was skeptical and hesitating on Church thesis and computationalism. He missed the consequences,as Einstein (and himself) missed Everett.




The higher beings are connected to the others by analogy, not by composition.
Concepts have an objective existence.
There is a scientific (exact) philosophy and theology, which deals with concepts of the highest abstractness; and this is also most highly fruitful for science.
Religions are, for the most part, bad– but religion is not.
All points are consistent with comp. But comp makes stronger statement: 10 becomes "Weak materialism" is false, for example.

Bruno



Your point 2 sounds like Godel's first point, and your fifth one sounds like Godel's 10th.

Jason


Edgar




On Monday, January 13, 2014 9:55:38 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
Edgard,

You've described the conclusions you've come to in theory, but not what you are assuming at the start. So what are those minimal assumptions you took as true at the start which led to your other deductions?

Thanks,

Jason


On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 8:23 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
Jason,

I've already presented a good part of my theory repeatedly in considerable detail giving good logical arguments. The only 'jargon' I've used is the single neologism 'ontological energy' which I've defined clearly.

I can't help it if reality is a difficult subject. What frustrates me is not the disagreements which are to be expected but disagreements based on misunderstanding of what I've stated quite clearly and people thinking I've said the exact opposite. That is most certainly not a problem with the explanations but with the reading....

Edgar

On Monday, January 13, 2014 9:13:05 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote:



On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
Liz,

Sigh.... Now we have several people complaining because I haven't offered a 'formal theory'.

A first (and great) step would be just to explain in clear normal language (no jargon) what you assume, and what you derive from those assumptions. You don't have to give us a bunch of equations.

Jason


However not a single one of the complainers has themselves offered a formal theory even though they are continually offering theories of their own, none of which are formalized. Is that fair?

The only person on this group who has a formal theory that I'm aware of is Bruno. No one else? You don't have one of your own but you are criticizing me because I don't have one?

What you guys don't seem to understand is that whether a theory accurately describes reality or not is a much more important criterion than whether that theory is formalized or not. Physics described reality quite accurately for years before it reached its current degree of formalization and that's why it was accepted.

Doesn't really matter whether you have a formal theory or not if there is no connection to reality now does there? Bruno's theory is apparently quite tightly formalized but I see none of the required actual consistency with reality to indicate it actually applies to reality at all.

Bruno's theory may itself be logically consistent, but I see no consistency with actual reality. Mine on the other hand is entirely consistent with actual reality because it clearly states that the computations of its computational reality are precisely what is actually necessary to compute the real processes of nature, whatever they are.

Bruno's on the other hand makes the wild and unsubstantiated assumption that all possible math is 'out there' in reality somehow even if it's doing nothing. A very improbable assumption there is no empirical evidence for whatsoever. Doesn't matter in the least if the logical consequences of that initial assumption are tight and valid (a formalized theory) if the assumption itself isn't.

I just hope you guys understand what I'm saying is a basis of scientific method. Doesn't matter so much if a theory is formalized. What matters is its explanatory power and consistency with actually observed phenomena.

Edgar


My theory on the other hand takes

On Monday, January 13, 2014 4:52:34 PM UTC-5, Liz R wrote:
On 14 January 2014 04:31, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
Stephen,

It's not 'ideal monism'. Trying to shoehorn it won't help you understand it.

Just take the pure information content of everything that exists out of the 'things'. You have pure information. Now assume that information is continually evolving to compute the current state of reality. Where does it exist and evolve? Not in a physical world, but in the presence of reality itself. Only because there is something that exists called reality which supports these computations do they become real and actual...

Ooh, "It from bit!"

If you want to take the pure information content out of things, you have to explain what that means. Try a simple example. An electron, perhaps? The information content is an electric charge, a mass, a spin. I think that's all, isn't it? So, what does it mean for that information to be extracted, where does it live, how does it evolve, etc? Over to you!

We can move on to "the presence of reality itself" once we have a formal definition or worked examples (or SOMETHING) for the information part.


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