On 14 Jan 2014, at 18:42, Edgar L. Owen wrote:

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Jason,Sorting out which are irreducible (axioms) and which derivable is anongoing process. Yes, i understand what an axiom is. Remember Euclidin Jr. High School?By logically complete, I mean that in the same sense as Godel doesin his Incompleteness Theorem. Reality computations are logicallycomplete because the next step is always computable because it'salways being computed. Human math is not logically complete becausehumans can formulate well formed statements in math without firstcomputing them from axioms, and ONLY THEN try to compute them fromthe axioms.Reality doesn't formulate statements (reality states) and then tryto reach them (that's teleology), it simple computes the next statefrom the current state which it can always do. Thus reality math islogically complete. Human math isn't, as Godel demonstrated,

`That is wrong. Gödel proves that for all effective theories, or all`

`consistent machines.`

`"reality" math is not defined. If it is just "math", Gödel's theorem`

`does not apply, because "math" is not a formal theory, but human math`

`is also not formal or effective.`

without changes to it's axioms to bring it in line with reality math.

`All consistent axiomatic theories obeys to Gödel's theorem. You can`

`add as many axioms you want, the theory obtained will obey to Gödel's`

`incompleteness. Arithmetic is called "essentially" undecidable. It`

`means that arithmetical theories and *all* their effective extensions`

`obeys to the theorem.`

Bruno

Edgar On Tuesday, January 14, 2014 12:47:32 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote:On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 9:38 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net>wrote:Jason,A good question, that's why I've already listed a number of the mostbasic axioms and concepts of the theory.Okay, thanks. Could you clarify which are axioms (assumptions) andwhich are the ones derived from those axioms?1. Existence must exist because non-existence cannot exist. 2. Reality is a logically consistent and logically complete structure.3. The theory must be consistent with and attempt to explain all theactual equations of science insofar as they are known and valid, butNOT the interpretations of those equations. It must be consistentwith the actual science (the equations) but not with theinterpretations of the science, which in my view is often completelywrong.4. Reality is an evolving computational structure which continuallycomputes the current state of the universe.5. This reality consists only of evolving information rather than aphysical, material world.6. These computations produce a real universe state with realeffects because they run in reality itself, in the logical space andpresence of existence, what I call ontological energy.7. What actually exists is all that can or could exist. Theexistence of reality as it actually is conclusively falsifies allother possible realities. Thus the past is the only possible pastthat could have existed because it is the only one that does exist.Thus the original extended fine tuning is the only one that ispossible because it is the only one that is actual.8. Reality exists only in a present moment. Reality must be presentto be real. It's presence manifests as the present moment in whichwe all exist.etc. etc. etc. There are hundreds of other basic concepts... Whichcome from which you can judge...If they are all axioms, then none of them should come from anyother, as then it wouldn't be an assumption but a deduction. Forexample, in the first one you say "existence must exist because non-existence cannot exist". It would seem then that "non-existencecannot exist" is an axiom, and from that it follows that existencemust exist. Regarding the second point, I understand what you meanby logically consistent but what do you mean by logically complete?The whole last part of my book, Part VII, is a concise summary ofthe basic axioms and concepts of the whole theory. It's as close toa formal presentation of the theory as I have.This reminded me of the 14 points Godel wrote that defined hisphilosophy. His were:The world is rational.Human reason can, in principle, be developed more highly (throughcertain techniques).There are systematic methods for the solution of all problems (alsoart, etc.).There are other worlds and rational beings of a different and higherkind.The world in which we live is not the only one in which we shalllive or have lived.There is incomparably more knowable a priori than is currently known.The development of human thought since the Renaissance is thoroughlyintelligible (durchaus einsichtige).Reason in mankind will be developed in every direction. Formal rights comprise a real science. Materialism is false.The higher beings are connected to the others by analogy, not bycomposition.Concepts have an objective existence.There is a scientific (exact) philosophy and theology, which dealswith concepts of the highest abstractness; and this is also mosthighly fruitful for science.Religions are, for the most part, bad– but religion is not.Your point 2 sounds like Godel's first point, and your fifth onesounds like Godel's 10th.Jason Edgar On Monday, January 13, 2014 9:55:38 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: Edgard,You've described the conclusions you've come to in theory, but notwhat you are assuming at the start. So what are those minimalassumptions you took as true at the start which led to your otherdeductions?Thanks, JasonOn Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 8:23 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net>wrote:Jason,I've already presented a good part of my theory repeatedly inconsiderable detail giving good logical arguments. The only 'jargon'I've used is the single neologism 'ontological energy' which I'vedefined clearly.I can't help it if reality is a difficult subject. What frustratesme is not the disagreements which are to be expected butdisagreements based on misunderstanding of what I've stated quiteclearly and people thinking I've said the exact opposite. That ismost certainly not a problem with the explanations but with thereading....Edgar On Monday, January 13, 2014 9:13:05 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote:On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net>wrote:Liz,Sigh.... Now we have several people complaining because I haven'toffered a 'formal theory'.A first (and great) step would be just to explain in clear normallanguage (no jargon) what you assume, and what you derive from thoseassumptions. You don't have to give us a bunch of equations.JasonHowever not a single one of the complainers has themselves offered aformal theory even though they are continually offering theories oftheir own, none of which are formalized. Is that fair?The only person on this group who has a formal theory that I'm awareof is Bruno. No one else? You don't have one of your own but you arecriticizing me because I don't have one?What you guys don't seem to understand is that whether a theoryaccurately describes reality or not is a much more importantcriterion than whether that theory is formalized or not. Physicsdescribed reality quite accurately for years before it reached itscurrent degree of formalization and that's why it was accepted.Doesn't really matter whether you have a formal theory or not ifthere is no connection to reality now does there? Bruno's theory isapparently quite tightly formalized but I see none of the requiredactual consistency with reality to indicate it actually applies toreality at all.Bruno's theory may itself be logi ... --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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