On 05 Mar 2014, at 22:15, [email protected] wrote:


On Monday, March 3, 2014 6:53:16 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 02 Mar 2014, at 19:53, [email protected] wrote:


On Sunday, March 2, 2014 4:34:33 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 02 Mar 2014, at 13:36, [email protected] wrote:

> So, why do we get tired, and why is being tired like the way that it
> is? If its exhaustion, maybe  up a couple of days, why does it stop
> being about motivation and becomes that we can't think straight? ass
>
> Why do we need to sleep? Why do we need to REM sleep in what looks
> to be precise amounts, which we're not capable of losing ground on
> (strong evidence when people are prevented REM sleep in the lab over
> days, they begin to pass out more and more easily, and don't return
> to normal until all the REM is made up for)
> i
> Why is it, mental fatigue has certain properties that ties fatigue
> to specific mental activities but not other, equally challenging
> ones? Why is this strongly correlated with how much time a specifc
> kind of activity has already been focused on since last sleep? Such
> that 'a change is as good as a rest'.
> ion
> If computation is intrinsically conscious why aren't we conscious
> in the vast majority of our brains, where the vast majority of the
> heavy lifting goes on?  Why aren't we conscious in our other organs
> where  sigtinificant computation takes place, and is connected with
> our brains. When I write a piece of code and run it, why aren't I
> experiencing the consciousness of the code?  What decides what
> object and experiences what consciousness,  and why is that stable?
> If I lie down beside my twin, why don't I sometimes wake up him?
>
> If computation is intrinsically conscious, where is consciousness
> experienced? How is facilitated? If a computer is intrinsically
> conscious, which hardware parts are consciousness, and/or which
> hardwaerre parts are required by the conscious experience of
> software, such that the experience is able to think the next
> thought? The processor? RAM?
>
> Given all this hardware is tightly controlled by processes running,
> and given these processes, and their footprint through the hardware
> can be precisely known, why is the old Turing needed, or should it
> be updated to include predictions for what an emergent consciousness
> would look like, its footprint, CPU use? If computation is
> intrinsically consciousness why can we account for the footprint of
> our code, purely in terms of, and exactly
>  of that code?
> ,
> Why haven't these footprint iss9ues been heavily researched over the
> past 50 years...why isn't there a hard theory? With nothing at all
> having been done in this area, for all we know when the computer
> runs slow and starts to ceize that isn't sometimes a darling little
> consciousness flashing into existence and struggling to survive,
> only to be broken on the wheel of the Norton performance tuner? Why
> is even a chance of that acceptable...why hasn't any work been done
> on the footprint issue?


A remarkable set of interesting questions ghibbsa.

And then, UDA makes things worse, as it adds to the task of explaining consciousness, when assuming its digital invariance, the derivation of
the beliefs in the physical laws, in arithmetic.

I submit a problem. Then the translation of that problem in arithmetic
suggest the following answer.

Computation is not intrinsically consciousness. Consciousness is not
an attribute of computation. Consciousness is an attribute of a
person, a first person notion.

Would you agree you've said many times that it is? Consciousness intrinsic of computation?

You will not find one quote. On the contrary I insist on the contrary. Consciousness is an attribute of person, and they exist in Platonia, out of time and space and physics, which arises from their views from inside. It is very simple: you cannot equate a first person notion, like consciousness, and *any* third person notions. With comp, we almost equate it when saying yes to the doctor, but we don't it "affirmatively", we do it because we *hope* we get a level right, but the theory will explain that we are "invoking God" implicitly in the process, and that is why I insist it is a theology.

Fair enough Bruno - I got that wrong then.

OK.



I was very sure, but I'm too lazy to go look, since intuitively I do totally trust your word. However, like me you may be a bit mad, in which case, if I do see a quote I'll be sure to come get you!

Well, that might not been enough. I might have indeed use expression like "a machine can think" or even "computation can be conscious" in some context, as a shortening for "a machine can support consciousness", or "a computation can make possible for a conscious person to manifest itself relatively to some environment".

The basic rule is simple: we cannot identify any 1p thing with any 3p thing. The nice happening in AUDA, is that we can understand from the math that impossibility in a complete 3p view. That is: we can explain in the usual 3p scientific mode why there is an 1p, different from the 3p body, and different from any 3p notion, without needing to commit ourself to an ontological dualism. The dualism involved is purely epistemological, but shown unavoidable for any self-referentially correct machines or relative numbers.

Note that Kripke himself, using modal logic, already provided an argument against the brain-mind identity thesis, notably in his book "Naming and Necessity".

Bruno







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