On Thursday, March 6, 2014 8:31:29 AM UTC, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Thursday, March 6, 2014 8:06:19 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 05 Mar 2014, at 22:15, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> On Monday, March 3, 2014 6:53:16 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 02 Mar 2014, at 19:53, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, March 2, 2014 4:34:33 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 02 Mar 2014, at 13:36, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> > So, why do we get tired, and why is being tired like the way that it >>>> >>>> > is? If its exhaustion, maybe up a couple of days, why does it stop >>>> > being about motivation and becomes that we can't think straight? ass >>>> > >>>> > Why do we need to sleep? Why do we need to REM sleep in what looks >>>> > to be precise amounts, which we're not capable of losing ground on >>>> > (strong evidence when people are prevented REM sleep in the lab over >>>> >>>> > days, they begin to pass out more and more easily, and don't return >>>> > to normal until all the REM is made up for) >>>> > i >>>> > Why is it, mental fatigue has certain properties that ties fatigue >>>> > to specific mental activities but not other, equally challenging >>>> > ones? Why is this strongly correlated with how much time a specifc >>>> > kind of activity has already been focused on since last sleep? Such >>>> > that 'a change is as good as a rest'. >>>> > ion >>>> > If computation is intrinsically conscious why aren't we conscious >>>> > in the vast majority of our brains, where the vast majority of the >>>> > heavy lifting goes on? Why aren't we conscious in our other organs >>>> > where sigtinificant computation takes place, and is connected with >>>> > our brains. When I write a piece of code and run it, why aren't I >>>> > experiencing the consciousness of the code? What decides what >>>> > object and experiences what consciousness, and why is that stable? >>>> > If I lie down beside my twin, why don't I sometimes wake up him? >>>> > >>>> > If computation is intrinsically conscious, where is consciousness >>>> > experienced? How is facilitated? If a computer is intrinsically >>>> > conscious, which hardware parts are consciousness, and/or which >>>> > hardwaerre parts are required by the conscious experience of >>>> > software, such that the experience is able to think the next >>>> > thought? The processor? RAM? >>>> > >>>> > Given all this hardware is tightly controlled by processes running, >>>> > and given these processes, and their footprint through the hardware >>>> > can be precisely known, why is the old Turing needed, or should it >>>> > be updated to include predictions for what an emergent consciousness >>>> >>>> > would look like, its footprint, CPU use? If computation is >>>> > intrinsically consciousness why can we account for the footprint of >>>> > our code, purely in terms of, and exactly >>>> > of that code? >>>> > , >>>> > Why haven't these footprint iss9ues been heavily researched over the >>>> >>>> > past 50 years...why isn't there a hard theory? With nothing at all >>>> > having been done in this area, for all we know when the computer >>>> > runs slow and starts to ceize that isn't sometimes a darling little >>>> > consciousness flashing into existence and struggling to survive, >>>> > only to be broken on the wheel of the Norton performance tuner? Why >>>> > is even a chance of that acceptable...why hasn't any work been done >>>> > on the footprint issue? >>>> >>>> >>>> A remarkable set of interesting questions ghibbsa. >>>> >>>> And then, UDA makes things worse, as it adds to the task of explaining >>>> >>>> consciousness, when assuming its digital invariance, the derivation of >>>> >>>> the beliefs in the physical laws, in arithmetic. >>>> >>>> I submit a problem. Then the translation of that problem in arithmetic >>>> >>>> suggest the following answer. >>>> >>>> Computation is not intrinsically consciousness. Consciousness is not >>>> an attribute of computation. Consciousness is an attribute of a >>>> person, a first person notion. >>>> >>> >>> Would you agree you've said many times that it is? Consciousness >>> intrinsic of computation? >>> >>> >>> You will not find one quote. On the contrary I insist on the contrary. >>> Consciousness is an attribute of person, and they exist in Platonia, out of >>> time and space and physics, which arises from their views from inside. >>> It is very simple: you cannot equate a first person notion, like >>> consciousness, and *any* third person notions. With comp, we almost equate >>> it when saying yes to the doctor, but we don't it "affirmatively", we do it >>> because we *hope* we get a level right, but the theory will explain that we >>> are "invoking God" implicitly in the process, and that is why I insist it >>> is a theology. >>> >> >> Fair enough Bruno - I got that wrong then. >> >> >> OK. >> >> >> >> I was very sure, but I'm too lazy to go look, since intuitively I do >> totally trust your word. However, like me you may be a bit mad, in which >> case, if I do see a quote I'll be sure to come get you! >> >> >> Well, that might not been enough. I might have indeed use expression like >> "a machine can think" or even "computation can be conscious" in some >> context, as a shortening for "a machine can support consciousness", or "a >> computation can make possible for a conscious person to manifest itself >> relatively to some environment". >> >> The basic rule is simple: we cannot identify any 1p thing with any 3p >> thing. The nice happening in AUDA, is that we can understand from the math >> that impossibility in a complete 3p view. That is: we can explain in the >> usual 3p scientific mode why there is an 1p, different from the 3p body, >> and different from any 3p notion, without needing to commit ourself to an >> ontological dualism. The dualism involved is purely epistemological, but >> shown unavoidable for any self-referentially correct machines or relative >> numbers. >> >> Note that Kripke himself, using modal logic, already provided an argument >> against the brain-mind identity thesis, notably in his book "Naming and >> Necessity". >> >> Bruno >> > > Fair enough....but can I just say my most recent memory, which is very > partial and devoid of context...just a few shards of shattered glass > really. The only point of it, would be if it jogged your memory saying it, > which allowed you to explain. There's a strong possibility my memory was > someone else not you so not to worry if you're sure you didn't say it. > > So my memory shard for context is that....things turned to what I thought > was the matter of computation and whether it was intrinsically conscious. > > I don't remember how the too and fro happened, but at some stage, another > memory shard is that, I interpreted, you responded affirmatively to > computation intrinsically consciousness question (asked by me or someone) > > my memory shard for what you said is something like - and this is likely > paraphrase "they seem different"...."little pieces of computation..." > ....."but in a real way...."...."...they are like us....",..."conscious". > > So as I remembered it, all together something like "computation is > intrinsically conscious or proto-conscious, computation is like us but > maybe more primitive or primordial, but nevertheless directly related, and > in some sense that is significant and meaningful they are conscious...even > if it's nothing so sophisticated as our own,...a definite relation though" > > That's my most recent memory Bruno. Maybe it wasn't you. Maybe I > misinterpreted at the time. Maybe I misremembered. But that's a > memory....which stayed with me....because basically it was something I felt > profoundly at odds with, but had no expression at the time, or means, to > challenge, or felt not. > > If that jogs anything, positively....maybe I'll bother doing some google > groups searches. not sure how that service runs. Hopefully it's better than > yahoo's effort tee hee. bound to be. > Bruno - scrap the above. I wasn't thinking clearly. I don't know why I'm bothering you or me with a 'shard' memory. You're explaining the sense you would mean it to me above. Therefore it doesn't matter what wording was used in the past, beyond the sort of input a high school English teacher would have into this :O) Instead of the above, can I request some context, in terms of what other people that are your peers, think as to this. For example, the guy that said something like "consciousness is what code feels like to be processed". Would you say that statement implies a belief computation is trinsically conscious? What about others - like Russell (who might just read this and be willing to answer ). Does Russell (a) agree with you completely (b) think computation is intrinsically conscious (c) think it isn't (d) think it's unsettled (e) some version of that set, with words like 'probably' added. Does Church thesis say anything either way? That is, the version of comp you use for a starter? What about other versions, whether alternative or primordial/earlier/original or whatever All much appreciated. I think I understand the Turing/universal/machine definitions....even if can't express them correctly. I've a good visual on that, I think. Cheers!
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