Bruno: I frown when I read *"ontology"* because it means something like the science (philosophy???) of the *existing* everything (improved definitions gladly accepted). I am not sure about such "existing". Maybe we have some ideas what we THINK it may be. (in the ballpark of reality?)
Older savants made useful application of terms we cannot really fixate. This is part of my agnosticism: to discount the 'oldies' - no matter how smart (wise?) they were. I start the time for 'oldies' at the present and count them on any backwards scale. Even include my own past oeuvre. Now *THAT* you may call "wishful thinking". John M On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 03 May 2014, at 16:38, John Mikes wrote: > > Bruno (excuse me!) - what is the difference between > "* stable patterns of information, e.g. perception..."* > and::(your ontological existence?, 'explained' as): > * "the primitive objects that we agree to assume to solve or formulate > some problem, and the phenomenological, or epistemological existence,"????* > Ontology is a word. Existence another. So is Information and Perception. > > > I would say "ontology" is a word. But ontology is what exist, and that can > be a word in some theory but could be a giraffe or a dinosaur, or a planet, > or a number, in this or that other theory. > > The same for "existence", "information" and "perception", those are words. > But I don't see why information, perception and existence would be word. > > (Later, in the math thread, I might denote the number 2 by s(s(0)), and > denote the sequence "s(s(0))" by the number 2^(code of s)*5^(code of "("; > ...., which will give a large number s(s(s(s(s(s(s(...(0)))...). > This is necessary to distinguish in arithmetic a number and a code for > that number.) > > > > > Both definitions are based on ASSUMING.human ways of cognition/mentality. > > > We can work from the cognitive abilities of machines. Those abilities can > be defined in elementary arithmetic, or in any computer language. > > > > > Phenomenological in my vocabulary points to "as we perceive" something, > the > epistemological points to changes of the same. Within our mental > capabilities. > > > All right. > > > None cuts into anything " R E A L " . > > > You don't know that. > > WE CAN NOT. > > > You cannot know that too. > > What we cannot do, is express that we can. But we can't express that we > cannot do it either. > We cannot pretend having stumble on some truth, but we might still stumble > on some truth. Why not? > > Bruno > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 4:17 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On 30 Apr 2014, at 21:06, meekerdb wrote: >> >> >> >> So what does "existence" mean besides stable patterns of information, >> e.g. perception of the Moon, landing on the Moon, tidal effects of the >> Moon,... >> >> >> I distinguish the ontological existence, which concerns the primitive >> objects that we agree to assume to solve or formulate some problem, and the >> phenomenological, or epistemological existence, which are the appearance >> that we derive at some higher "emergent" level. >> >> With comp we need to assume a simple basic Turing complete theory (like >> Robinson arithmetic, or the SK combinator). And we derive from them the >> emergence of all universal machines, their interactions and the resulting >> first person statistics, which should explains the origin and development >> (in some mathematical space) of the law of physics. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I like when David Mermin said once: "Einstein asked if the moon still >> exist when nobody look at it. Now we know that the moon, in that case, >> definitely not exist". >> >> Well, that was a comp prediction, with the difference that the moon >> doesn't exist even when we look at it. >> Only the relative relations between my computational states and >> infinitely many computations exists. >> >> >> Thus completely eviscerating the meaning of "exist". >> >> >> ? >> Are you not begging the question? >> I would say that comp does not eviscerate the meaning of "exists". The >> meaning is provides by the standard semantics of predicate logic, where >> "exists" is a quantifier. >> >> >> But that is quite a different sense of "exist". >> >> >> It is most basic one, used at the ontic level. May be you *assume* a >> notion of primitive physical existence. Then indeed, with comp we assume >> only a simple notion of arithmetical existence (on which most scientists >> agree) and derive the physical reality from an epistemological type of >> existence. >> >> >> >> It just means satisfying axioms and inferences from those axioms. >> >> >> It means more, as we work in a theory which is supposed to be a theory of >> everything. It is not pure logic or pure math. It is theology or TOE. >> >> >> >> Depending on the axioms and the rules of inference you can prove that >> something exists or that it cannot exist or that it might exist but can't >> be proven. >> >> >> We work in the comp frame. It presuppose you agree with sentences like >> "it exist a number equal to the successor of the successor of 0", etc. >> >> We want explain complex phenomena, from particles interactions to >> conscious awareness, from simple basic assumption. >> >> >> >> >> >> The choosing arithmetic as the base universal theory, >> >> >> And choosing Christianity as the base universal theory.... And choosing >> Marxism as the base universal theory.... >> >> >> I have never met a christian, nor a marxist, believing that elementary >> arithmetic is false or useless. >> I have met arithmeticians doubting Christianity and/or Marxism. >> Elementary arithmetic is a "scientific" theory (even a sub-theory of most >> applied scientific theories). >> Christianity is a fuzzy and vague corpus of hope and belief, presupposing >> too arithmetic. >> To oppose or compare Christianity and arithmetic is no better than >> opposing Christianity and Evolution Theory. >> >> >> >> >> >> only number exists, some number functions and relation exists in a >> related but slightly different sense, and then physical existence is >> precisely define by the "existence" used in the modal context. >> Roughly speaking, we have the intelligible existence the "E" of >> arithmetic, then the modal existence: >> with [i]p = []p & p, or []p & <>t, or []p & <>t & p, we have different >> notion of existence of the type >> [i]Ex([i]p(x) and also, (quantized existence) [i]<i>Ex([i]<i>p(x)). Of >> course this needs the first order modal logic extending the current >> propositional hypostases. >> More on this in the math thread. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If my consciousness can survive a physical digital substitution, then >> it survives an arithmetical digital substitution, and what we call the moon >> has to be recovered as a stable pattern emerging from an infinity of >> computations in arithmetic, >> >> >> But only, I think, in a different digital universe in which "we" are also >> stable patterns of relations. >> >> >> By the FPI, we are distributed in infinitely many computations (making >> the real universe appearance a non digital and unique (yet multiversal) >> reality a priori). >> >> >> And in THAT universe what "we" call "the Moon" is what "we" can fly too >> and and on. >> >> >> OK, then. but I was using the arithmetic TOE(*), and we have to be >> clear on all the different notions of existence which emerge in it. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> (*) the TOE chosen is Robinson arithmetic. Precisely, it is predicate >> logic + the non logical following axioms: >> >> 0 ≠ s(x) >> s(x) = s(y) -> x = y >> x = 0 v Ey(x = s(y)) >> x+0 = x >> x+s(y) = s(x+y) >> x*0=0 >> x*s(y)=(x*y)+x >> >> An observer is a believer in the axioms above + some induction axioms. >> >> >> IF you can build a world out of those, THEN an a believer in those axioms >> is an observer in THAT world. But that's a long way from showing it's true >> of THIS world. >> >> >> The term "world" is ambiguous. In our case, we derive a many-world >> structure from those axioms. >> >> The goal consists in explaining complex things from simple principle. The >> physicalist string theory tries to do that too, but, as I explained, has >> some issue with the mind-body problem. >> >> I comment your other posts here: >> >> The point is that "what we call the Moon" IS the Moon. >> >> >> The question is: *what* is the moon, in the fundamental TOE (that we >> derive from comp, for example). >> >> If not, you become instrumentalist, and just abandon the idea of >> searching a fundamental theory. >> >> >> Not at all. The Moon is defined ostensively. But that doesn't mean I'm >> prevented developing a theory about what it's made of, how it formed, what >> effects it has, ... That's why I said you've been a logician to long; you >> mistake a definition for the thing itself and when it's defined you suppose >> nothing more can be said. >> >> >> Doing that confusion would mean that I have not been a logician long >> enough, as definition theory is part of logic. Such confusion are the >> object of study of the logician, which are supposed to be expert on this. >> You don't define the moon ostensively. You provide evidence for a >> possible repeatable and sharable experience, but that does not tell us what >> the moon is, what ontological and epistemological status it can have. >> >> I am not sure of your motivation here. It looks like "don't ask what is >> the fundamental nature of the things we talk about"? >> My point is that such nature will depend of the fundamental principle we >> agree on (if only for the sake of research: agreeing on axioms does not >> mean knowing they are true of course (pace Craig). >> >> I am just saying that if comp is true, existence of physical object must >> be explain by "machine's theology or self-referential logics". >> >> >> Sure. But why is that any more interesting than, "If theism is true, >> existence of physical objects must be explained by theist theology." ? >> >> >> That correct, but less interesting because man fight on the theist >> assumptions, which are hard to make precise. But comp is simpler, get a lot >> of evidence, is believed/assumed by most scientist, and machine's theology >> is a precise branch of math. Indeed we get testable consequences, which is >> not clearly the case for the current theist theology. The gain is there. >> >> >> >> Note that any noun whatsoever can be inserted in place of "theism" and >> it's still a true sentence. That's the beauty, and the failure, of logic. >> >> >> Not really. Many people believe in comp *and* in primitive physical >> object. A priori that seems plausible, but the UDA shows that this is not >> plausible. It is not obvious that if comp is true, physics becomes reduced >> to intensional number theory. You need to study the comp mind-body problem >> to understand the necessity of that reduction, in that frame. >> Logic fails anyway, that is why we need non logical axioms, like 0+x = x, >> etc. >> >> Last post: >> >> That's why I wrote "what WE call the Moon". The meaning of terms in >> language depends on agreed understanding of speaker and hearer. You can't >> ostensively define the moon in your dreams to someone else. >> >> >> I can, to someone else I am dreaming too. >> I have no real problem with your "instrumentalist" definition of the >> moon, but it is not enough for solving or progressing in the mind-body >> problem, and in the question of the origin. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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