On Sun, Jun 8, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 08 Jun 2014, at 12:30, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > > > On Sun, Jun 8, 2014 at 6:12 AM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On 8 June 2014 15:43, spudboy100 via Everything List < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I do know what I am criticizing, and view Marx and Engels claims in >>> Manifesto, and Das Kapital as nothing more than deliberate lies to defer >>> just criticism, especially, when viewed in the light of Marx and Engels, >>> quotes, journals, and articles. The withering away concept was deliberately >>> used as sop, to those who Marx knew would grow weary of state oppression. >>> Just a little longer and then it will be perfect, everyone will be a >>> Barron, and master of their own world. The Castro regime still uses it as >>> an excuse for economic stagnation. As C. Northcoate Parkinson said, "Delay >>> is the most deadly form of denial." >> >> >> OK, I take it back. That's a valid viewpoint. (I don't know if there is >> evidence to support it?) >> > > I would say that this viewpoint is validated empirically: all attempts at > marxist societies devolved into authoritarianism. > > Lenin famously said: > "While the state exists, there can be no freedom. When there is freedom > there will be no state." > > I have no reason to assume he wasn't being honest. It's just that it > doesn't work. But it is perhaps incorrect to claim that early marxist > philosophers desired authoritarianism. > > > It would been unfair to say that they desired authoritarianism. But they > didn't desire democracy either, and did not conceive that the > implementations of their ideas could be done by the people in some > incremental voting way. They missed the importance of democracy. > To make it clear, I am not defending marxism. I think it has been thoroughly empirically falsified. I think it's important to make it clear precisely what was falsified. I get the impression that a lot of people that criticise or propose marxism (and other ideologies) do not fully understand what it is that they are criticising or proposing. > Democracies are not perfect, and can be very sick, but it is better than > anything else. > I am a bit suspicious of this claim, because that seems to be the perception that every era has of its system of governance: before the barbarians, now the age of reason. We just need to fix some quirks, but we have the perfect system now... > Whatever the good idea is defended in politics, it is better to submit it > to vote, and even still better when doing this without propaganda and > unfair financial lobbying. > I would say that it is even better if the idea can be implemented without coercion, so that no vote is necessary. The growth of the Internet is a great example of such a modality. Hopefully, crypto-currencies will also make it in this fashion. > Democracies can be improved, and sick democracies can be cured. Today we > need something like anti-propaganda laws, and anti-special-interest > lobbying or things like that. > The more laws you create, the more loopholes are generated for hostile agents to explore. I think it is best to insist on no-coercion: you can create whatever rules you like, but I must always be free to opt-out of your society. > We need more democracies, not less. > Today our democracies are in peril, not much due to the financial sphere, > but due to the erosion of the separation of powers, which favor groups of > interest again the individual interests of the majority of individuals. > It could be argued that this is the logical consequence of democracy in its current format. Representative democracy is based on the idea that we cannot trust the average person with freedom, but we can let them decide who decides. Then we believe that we can trust the minority of the elected elite with all the power and all the freedom, and we are surprised when they also act in selfish ways... Democracy in its current format is still a system of dominance. It is a sophisticated one, in that the serfs have plausible deniability of being serfs. A symptom of this is when you keep reading opinions using the social "we". "We have to have a debate about state surveillance". Against all evidence, people insist on believing that there is a "we" that can decide to stop such things after a "debate". The contrast of Obama's first campaign with his actions as President made this painfully obvious to some of us, but not the majority of us. > > I don't believe in referenda, except for rare big decisions. Too much > referenda is not democratic. You can influence people too much easily, by > TV or other media, and it is better to vote for the wrong idea, and then to > vote perhaps on some other idea after a serious long period to better > evaluate if the idea was not working or not. > But there is not option to vote on ideas at all. I cannot pick and chose. I cannot say that I am for gays adopting and against gun control. This is not on the menu. Telmo. > > Bruno > > > > Telmo. > > >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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