On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 7:02 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 13 Jun 2014, at 15:41, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 7:47 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On 12 Jun 2014, at 13:39, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> The inconceivable freedom is in your heart, but give time to time, >>> >> >> You are right and I'll shut up now :) >> >> >> Please don't shut up! >> >> As long as we stay polite the fun is in the conversation, ... in the >> detours sometimes. >> > > My main motivation for shutting up here is that I fully agree, but > sometimes forget, that freedom is 1p. > > I do feel bad for going off-topic. I think that you and others, who > contribute a lot to the main topic of this mailing list, deserve more > leeway than me in going off-topic. So since you're asking, I feel > comfortable with arguing a bit more. > > (I was being sarcastic when I said the politician "misspeak". I was > referring to the sort of doublespeak and euphemisms they employ. Of course > they lie.) > > The reason why I suspect that democracy is not stable, is that it might > always degrade to a Keynesian beauty contest. Modern democracy originated > from enlightenment ideals, of raising human potential -- raising the > average. The trouble is that, the best strategy to win elections is to > pander to the average. A political movement that attempts to raise the > average will lose to the Keynesian beauty contest players in the long term. > So I am arguing that democracy contains in itself the evolutionary pressure > that generates its own demise. I hope I'm missing something. > > > Democracies are not stable, like all living beings are not stable, and > somehow they always generate their own demises. But we make children and > dialogs, and we can hope, and work for, that the children will not commit > our mistakes. > Ok, but my fear is the opposite: that democracies stabilise too early and in a way that removes choice (because the available choices converge due to the beauty contest). > > > I see democracy as the zero stage of democracy, > Only a logician would say something like this :) > and it is well capable of making us see the omega stars, but like a > rocket, it is unstable, and it can crash ,just after starting, ... so well, > we build a new rocket and try again, hoping we fix the preceding mistake, a > bit like in the "crash investigation series". > Ok, but then I start to suspect that our disagreement is on terminology. I think you have a broader definition of democracy than me. > > No reason to fear the average, as the average cultivated man like the > differences and can respect different life styles. > My fear is not of the average person but of the averaging of available choices and the subsequent deadlock that this can introduce on any further progress. > In a non-democracy you get mafias all the time, in democracy you get mafia > only when the democracy is sick. Democracies are young on this planet, you > just miss again the time factor. > Fair enough. > Of course it is our work and responsibility to denounce the injustice, but > today the net is useful for that. Let us keep it that way! > Completely agree. Telmo. > > Bruno > > > > > > Best, > Telmo. > > >> >> Thanks >> >> >> I thank you, >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >>> it is not that easy when we are two, saying nothing about three and >>> more. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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