Samiya, I can be no more appreciative to all I learned from you about the Islamic issues during my entire life. I will not change my ways of thinking now, after 92 years, but I still like to learn. So live well, have a good life (wherever it will take you) - you got a friend in me. So please do not reply my parting question anymore, which pertains to your approval-or-not of the cruelties of Sharia law and whether you accept ANY advancement of humanity over 1500 years at all. With respect John Mikes PS I found on Google a picture with your name, a gorgeous bride-face. I hope it is yours. JM
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 8:26 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear John, > Thank you for sharing your amazing life story! > > You ask: 'Allow me please one more question: how is it balanced with the > Day of the Divine Final Sentencing that people die now and some go to > Heaven and some to Hell? (I am referring to the "72 virgins" vs. the > "fire-created" Satan-helpers torture in Hell).' > > I am not too clear on what exactly is the question, but let me share my > understanding of trial and retribution, and please feel free to ask again > if this does not meet your query. > > This life on Earth is a trial for each human, we each have a unique set of > questions, situations, backgrounds, aptitudes, etc, and we all have a > potential for good and evil, as well as the free-will to choose and intend. > The trial ends with death. Everything that we think, do, believe, wish, > hope, desire, imagine, etc., is all being continuously recorded. God is > ever-present and witness to everything (including the trials set forth for > each one), and never forgets. Further, God has arranged for it all to be > recorded, and there are angels recording everything, which will be > presented as a scroll, so completely detailed that we ourselves will be > able to evaluate ourselves and know whether we belong in Heaven or Hell. > > The operating principle about Divine Judgement is that nobody will be > wronged in the least. I think that includes God, since ascribing partners > to God is stated as the greatest and most unforgivable wrong. > > Hell is something over which all will have to pass (Quran 19:70, 71). It > is imagined as a bridge which each one must cross to make it to Heaven. > There are many suggested prayers in the Quran to ask for protection from > the fire. However, Heaven is only mentioned as a reward and final > destination for those whom God blesses with His Approval. Those who are > blessed by God, will be able to pass over the bridge upon Hell, and reach > Heaven. Those who have earned Hell will fall therein. Those whose scales > are neither titled in favour of Heaven or Hell will be assigned either > Heaven or Hell in God's infinite wisdom and knowledge, the operating > principle again being that none will be wronged in the least. > > According to a scholar, there are three categories upon death: > (1) the large general category who will remain in a state of sleep till > resurrection and will then face their deeds. > (2) the few who have lived their lives so well that they have earned God's > approval and are greeted by angels with the good news of Heaven, and > continue to live (in another world veiled from us, not reincarnation here) > or dream in a state of bliss till resurrection > (3) the few who have earned and incurred divine wrath and will endure > torture and suffering from the moment they die till the day of resurrection > when they will finally enter Hell > > I do not find the count of 72 virgins in the Quran. Yes, other books do > refer to such things and attribute such sayings as explanations from the > Prophet. If I may borrow your phrase: I dunno :) What I do know is that the > Quran > says so many things and gives so many analogies and similitudes of > Paradise. It speaks of a magnificent realm, gardens with subterranean > rivers, moderate weather and shades, plentiful and delicious fruits and > meats, milk and honey, and non-intoxicating drinks in crystalline silver > goblets, fine clothing of silk and gold, family, pairs or spouses > (soul-mates?), fulfilment of all desires, such peace and serenity that no > one would ever desire any change of state, ... and it also mentions 'hurs' > or virgins with beautiful eyes, but as I've mentioned in an earlier > exchange, the word itself is neuter gender, so again, I dunno. Another > thing that is mentioned in the Quran, and which makes a lot of sense to me > in terms of the widely differing trials and lifestyles of the haves and > have-nots in this world, is that good things in the life of this world are > actually for the good people to expect and know what awaits them in a > better, more excellent, perfected form in Heaven, and deprivation and > suffering is also a preview of a much more intense form of what will be > given as punishment in Hell. However, please note that what we enjoy or > endure in this life is neither reward nor punishment, it's just our > question paper, and the easier it seems, the more sternly will it be > judged. We will be questioned about all the good that we are given, > including all comforts, conveniences and abilities, and will have to > account for how we used them. > > Does the above address your question? > Samiya > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 5:31 PM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Dear Samiya, thanks unlimitedly for your kind and information-laden >> response that opens eyes (mine included). I fell into political turmoil at >> an early age (WWII) and struggled to learn how to make a living in >> science/technology. I learned Latin and Gothic alphabets at 4-5 (on my >> own), Cyrillic and Hebrew at 7, Greek a bit later. Learned 2 mother-tongues >> at ~3, Latin for 8 years, French over 4+, English for 2, speak a little >> Italian and Russian, so Scripture etc. was suppressed in the fertile age. I >> am a learned classical pianist, did public performances over 75 years >> (parallel to a technical career with 38 patents to my name). I love Iqbal's >> maxim. I wrote books and papers, lectured on 3 continents. >> >> I am a natural scientist by training and still cannot position a >> "Creator" into the terms of that short-lived creature (humans) on this tiny >> mud-ball of a negligible star in a negligible galaxy of the infinite >> totality we got a glimpse of lately. Also with the billions of years now >> accountable it seems unrealistic to collect-or-not salvation, or hell, for >> people with so diverse potentials and lifespans. This prompted my reference >> to reincarnation, not the Indian 2 versions, but in diverse worlds >> different and unrestricted. We have no idea how diversified and big the >> totality may be. >> >> You wrote to the Guitarist Cowboy: >> *"... When the entire known creation are bound by the laws of nature, >> then how can it be that humans are not bound by anything. This free-will, >> ability to harness power, this so to say dominance over the Earth, how can >> it all come to humans only, and not some other creation? And if we humans >> are blessed with some unique privileges, there has to be some >> responsibility and accountability attached to such freedom of action. What >> do you think?* ..." >> >> I think you are right. There is (IMO) -NO- free will, there is the >> infinite complexity and it's pressures that push us. We, humans, cannot >> harness power, have no dominance over Earth (look at the climate-change or >> a possible cool-off of the Sun) and we are rookies here (10M years of the >> 13 bllion years of THIS galaxy) doomed to extiction by various reasons - >> soon. Our "privileges" are devilish. We kill. Against religion, for >> religion, by religion and without religion. Shoot, behead, stone, etc. We >> are malicious and evil. >> >> Allow me please one more question: how is it balanced with the Day of the >> Divine Final Sentencing that people die now and some go to Heaven and some >> to Hell? (I am referring to the "72 virgins" vs. the "fire-created" >> Satan-helpers torture in Hell). >> >> You see, I wanted to abstain from such discussions. Your kind words, >> however, did it to me. >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 8:00 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Dear John, >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 5:25 PM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Samiya, people ask the wrong questions. >>>> >>> >>> Maybe, or maybe I need to study and reflect much more before I can >>> answer properly >>> >>> >>>> Why and HOW did you pick the Quran as the SOURCE of your answers, if >>>> not because you grew up in a family/society where you heard about it day in >>>> and day out? >>>> >>> >>> In our society, Arabic is not a spoken/understood language. Children >>> are taught to read the Arabic script, i.e. pronounce the words, without >>> being taught the language. The Arabic script is similar to the Urdu script >>> (the language spoken in Pakistan), so its easy to learn to read even if you >>> cannot understand. Traditionally, people think its a means of earning >>> blessings to recite, hence many recite without understanding the scripture. >>> I used to think that was a flaw in our Muslim, Pakistani society, but >>> Hindus in Pakistan and India also similarly recite their scriptures in >>> Sanskrit. I suppose its a traditional / cultural thing of the Indo-Pak >>> subcontinent, who started and who followed, I don't know. >>> I started studying the Quran with meaning when I was in my late teens, >>> comparing different translations, as when reading just one translator, some >>> verses' translations just didn't make sense (partly due to my lack of >>> knowledge, and partly due to the translation and partly due to my ideas of >>> how I wanted the scripture to be). My interest in science also helped me in >>> critically reading the scripture, looking for the correct >>> explanation. However, reading various translations gave me the confidence >>> that when we can't understand something, we need to look harder, not just >>> write-off the scripture. >>> >>> I grew up in a different society and did not even 'think' of checking >>>> for 'truth' in the Quran (especially not in old Arabic language of which I >>>> really knew nothing) but was advised other 'books' for 'truth(?)'. >>>> I went through several ones of those, liked none of them. So I became >>>> agnostic. (=I dunno) >>>> >>> >>> I did my schooling at a Convent school, from age 5 till high school, so >>> I was exposed to Christianity since an early age. Christians and Hindus are >>> also a substantial part of the Pakistani society, so there was this >>> exposure to and interaction with people of other faiths. Furthermore, as I >>> mentioned in an earlier post, since my father was studying interfaith, >>> hence I was exposed to scriptures of various religions. Eventually, I did >>> read scriptures of other faiths. I think all scriptures have gems of >>> wisdom, though all except the Arabic Quran, contain a mixture of divine >>> scripture and human additions. >>> I started trying to learn the Arabic grammar about 15 years ago in an >>> effort to understand the Quran on my own. I also started to attend sermons >>> by various scholars to hears different points of view and understandings of >>> religion and scripture. From one, I came to appreciate the Majesty of the >>> Creator, from another I learnt about Divine Love and Mercy, and from >>> another I learnt humility and submission to Divine Will. >>> My most earnest study of the Quran has been in the past three years when >>> I was faced with a roller-coaster of peculiar moral and ethical dilemmas >>> and I needed to touch root. While holding on to the guidance, I came to >>> appreciate the Divine love and wisdom which protects us from following >>> desires which lead us to ruin, asking for sacrifices which are only in our >>> own best interests. >>> >>> >>> >>>> BTW how did a Native American, or an Inuit in past centuries get to the >>>> Prophet's teachings? >>>> How the illiterate Aborigines? Chinese-Japanese? Easy for the Arabic >>>> talking Mid-Easterners. >>>> >>>> >>> The Arabic Quran is not the only scripture, it is the last of the >>> divinely revealed scriptures. We believe that all communities received >>> guidance in the form of prophets, messengers and scriptures. Isn't it true >>> that people all over the world and all throughout history have had some >>> form of religion, and there are some common threads which are suspiciously >>> similar across religions? Almost all religions, or at least their >>> scriptures, start off with the belief in one God, yet eventually morph into >>> a polytheistic religion. >>> >>> To believe in the unseen God, angels, scriptures, messengers, hereafter, >>> good and evil, etc doesn't require an Arabic Quran or a Mid-Eastern >>> background. There are many Arabs in the Middle East who do not believe / >>> practice Islam, and there are many people all over the world who practice >>> the virtues exhorted in the Quran without ever having read it. As a famous >>> poet Iqbal wrote about a century ago, to paraphrase it: when I was in the >>> West, I saw Islam without Muslims, when I was in the East, I saw Muslims >>> without Islam. >>> >>> The advantage we have in this day and age is that we all have the Quran >>> available at our fingertips on the internet, and we also have a whole range >>> of scriptures, translations, lexicons, etc to do our own research. >>> >>> Samiya >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 4:16 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 14-Jul-2014, at 2:00 pm, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Why do you need to see God to believe in God? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You don't. To believe in God all that is needed in 99 times out of 100 >>>>> is for your mommy and daddy to tell you that there is a God. Not only that >>>>> but your mommy and daddy will tell you which particular God franchise is >>>>> the one true franchise and the chances are overwhelming that is the one >>>>> you >>>>> will belong to for your entire life. Why else do you think geography has >>>>> so >>>>> much to do with religious belief? >>>>> >>>>> That is because most people choose the religion of their parents, as >>>>> part of culture and are comfortable confirming to social norms, instead of >>>>> honest intellectual inquiry and search. >>>>> Blind following of parental faith is condemned in the Quran. >>>>> Samiya >>>>> >>>>> John K Clark >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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