On 17 Jul 2014, at 17:09, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2014-07-17 17:04 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>:
On 16 Jul 2014, at 19:31, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2014-07-16 19:22 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>:
On 15 Jul 2014, at 22:14, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2014-07-15 22:10 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>:
On 14 Jul 2014, at 17:25, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2014-07-14 17:13 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>:
On 14 Jul 2014, at 12:53, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2014-07-14 12:09 GMT+02:00 Samiya Illias <[email protected]>:
Why do you need to see God to believe in God?
Why should you believe if you can know ? If you can't, why
should you believe instead of not believing or go eating an
hamburger ?
Seeing might make you know *that* you see, but it does not entail
that you know *what* you see, as you might be dreaming or
hallucinating.
That wasn't what I was implying... I see not point to "believe"
or not "believe"... Why *shoud* I believe anyway ?
Just to clear things up, I use the common part of all "analytical
definition of belief theory and knowledge theory", and in
particular (knowing p) -> (believing p).
If you know that there is milk in the fridge, you believe that
there is milk in the fridge.
The key difference is that the reciprocal is false. If you believe
there is milk in the fridge , you can still "not know it".
Well I can accept such language in mathematics where you make
clear what is meant, not in every day use.... when someone says he
*believes* in god,
I use "believe" in the same mundane sense that "I believe that
there is orange juice in the fridge,
I believe in *god* is not like I believe there is orange juice in
the fridge.
What is the difference?
It imply faith, dogma. It imply an ontology about the world, the
reality.
Only by humans who use authorianism. But we agree at the start that
they are not doing science.
I use the term god and theology in the sense of wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology
I use "atheism" in the narrower sense defined in the wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
And frankly most people I know and claim to be atheist uses it in the
narrower sense.
In fact, on the rubric agnosticism, my use of the vocabulary matches
the one by William L Rowe (that I did not read):
<< According to the philosopher William L. Rowe, in the popular sense,
an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the
existence of a deity or deities, whereas atheist and an atheist
believe and disbelieve, respectively.[2] >>
in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
and later like in I believe in the axiom of elementary arithmetic
and in its first order logical consequence, or in "I don't believe
the machine k will stop on the input j.
that's not what he meant... That's what I don't like in your
approach to insist using everyday word in everyday language *but*
with your own mathematical meaning. It's misleading you should see
it.
I use "belief" in the doxastic sense of the analytical
philosophers. Iuse "belief" in the sense of Theaetetus, Gerson, etc.
You use those words in a misleading way... You do what you want of
course... but you're clearly totally misunderstood when you talk to
a believer.
I am probably misunderstood by the "blind-faith" type of believers,
That means 99% of the persons who say openly they "believe in god".
Then why the tea pot argument, and why qualifying, and re-
appropriating the 'agnostic" as coward atheist, like some atheists
wrote in some books? I will look for one.
If you believe that all atheists are not strong atheists, then you
believe that all atheists are agnostic, and the term atheism lost a
lot of its meaning.
Here too, most people, including many atheists around me, do agree
that atheism is "[]~g", and agnosticism is "~[]g".
We are taken back in an old vocabulary issue (which is a non stopping
thread even on wikipedia).
like the strong atheists
I've never met such kind of "atheist".
Onfray wrote a treatise of atheology, which was a success, and he
wrote (I remember, but don't find my exemplary for now) that
agnosticism is coward atheism (that is people who would pretend ~[]g,
for being polite, but who would think in their heart that []~g), and
if you have been to ULB, and did not meet a strong atheist (using the
narrower sense described in the wiki, and justified in the whole
rubric) then you are incredibly lucky. I will not cite name here.
I met from time to time (like John Clark to give the nearest example).
He surely doesn't believe in abrahamic god...
From what I understood, he *believes* in the non existence of the
abrahamic god. He *believes* it is a contradictory notion. Actually
John Clark asserted more than once that he believes that notion like
God (not just the abramanic one), nor "free will" could make *any*
sense.
And I quite agree that using that word for first cause type of
explanation is bound to be misunderstood.
Agreed. This is even a theorem in the theology of numbers.
"God" has too much history to be used in the sense you use it.
I use it in the sense of the wiki, see above. Only the fundamentalist
christians and the atheists seem to have a problem with this. Not the
christians in the catholic university of Louvain, nor any theologian I
met, nor the more agnostic type of weak atheists, which of course also
exist.
As scientist we have to be as open as possible. May be this or that
tradition is n % correct on some part of the theology, I prefer to
exclude nothing without serious argument. Of course I reject statement
like "God said this" as an argument for "this". But *that* is not an
argument for not-god, nor even for "not (God said this)".
Bruno
Quentin
But as John Clark illustrates very well, they need a high dose of
irrationalism, and as my works has illustrated, changing the
vocabulary does not help.
In interdisciplinary work, my strategy consists in using the terms
on which each each discipline has the greatest consensus over. I am
aware that this cannot satisfy everybody, but then in science we
don't waste time in vocabulary discussion. If something is unclear
about the use of some term, we just ask to remind the current used
definition.
Bruno
Quentin
Bruno
Quentin
Bruno
In general you believe something, not because you see it, but
because it fits well with your background knowledge. I can't see
the set {0, 1, 2, ...}, nor really define it, yet I hardly doubt
that it makes sense, as it explains a lot of other things in
which I already tend to believe (like the non existence of a
bigger prime, or the existence of universal numbers, the real
numbers, etc.).
Bruno
Quentin
On 14-Jul-2014, at 2:14 am, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/13/2014 3:47 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Sure: "Do you believe in a theist god?"
I'd like to.
So we can keep using the word "theology" and keep some
academic departments that have no subject.
This would also include political science, arts, gender
studies, french literature. Are you willing to go that far,
and make what doesn't build bridges or bake bread, something
to be learned as a podcast? Sauce for the goose, sauce for the
gander. Dump them all. Right?
I can point to art, people with genders, and french
literature. I've run a political campaign. But I've never
seen a god.
Brent
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