On 03 Aug 2014, at 20:50, meekerdb wrote:
On 8/3/2014 9:04 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Exactly what John Clark seems to miss, the first person after-
experiences.
Oh yes, that's because John Clark is a Zombie.
> In both diaries, those who predicted 'no break of symmetry',
Who in hell predicted no break of symmetry? One will see Moscow and
one will not, nobody thinks that is symmetrical. If things were
symmetrical there would only be one person regardless of how many
bodies there were; there needs to be a break in symmetry for the
concepts of "you" and "me" to be meaningful. You and I are two
different people because things are unsymmetrical, we both have
memories that the other does not; In the thought experiment things
are a little more complicated because the Helsinki Man has no
memories that the Moscow Man (or Washington Man) does not, but the
Moscow Man DOES have memories the Helsinki Man does
not, such as the memory of seeing Moscow.
Bruno seems to have a theory, based on his salvia experience, that a
person can exist independently of any memories.
Well, on this list I have regularly claim that the number of (first)
person is an open problem.
Then, it is true that salvia suggests the possibility that there is
only one.
But computationalism suggest this too. We would all be the unique
abstract person described by the logic S4Grz, with the '[]' taken as
minimal as possible.
What happens with salvia is that you can not only become amnesic (or
better dissociated from your memory but still able to access them, but
not having them as personal memories) but you get the feeling of
remembering something that you have always known and which is quite
specific. You can't really come back with that memory. There is a
double amnesia in play: there is an amnesia (of your mundane local
self) when going in there, and there is an amnesia of some aspect of
there when coming back.
That's why he says things like, "We're all the same person." I find
this theory contrary to experience. I've had two relatives die of
Alzheimers and they certainly did not seem to be the same person as
when they could remember things.
Well; look at some people under salvia, and they don't seem the same
person as when they are sober. Well, that is typically true also for
alcohol and most string psychotropic. But in this case, you define by
the person in part by its memories. the whole point here, is that we
might be the same person, even with quite different memories. Imagine
the W-guy meeting and falling in love with a muslim girl/man and
deciding to become muslim, and imagine the M-guy meeting and falling
in love with a jewish girl/man and deciding to become israelite, and
imagine them both living a full life, and being old. They would still
both be the H-guy. They are the same person, just living different
lives.
If you agree with this, it is just normal to consider that we might be
the same person, living different lives. When using salvia, that
intuition can be lived from inside, and it makes people usually more
empathic, and more shocked by what humans do to other humans, without
realizing that at some level, all the bad they do is to themselves,
and that they are just blind about who they really are.
I tend to think now that we are indeed the same person, but note that
this is not relevant for UDA, AUDA and the reversal, which let open
the questions about "ultimate" personal identity.
Bruno
Brent
> will write: "Why for God sake am I the one reconstituted in
Moscow ?
To answer the question, "you" were reconstituted in Moscow because
"you" saw Moscow and the other fellow didn't, if you'd been
reconstituted in Washington you'd be a different "you". It's not as
if "you" became the Moscow Man and there is some great cosmic
mystery as to why "you" then ended up in Moscow, it's the other way
around, the very act of seeing Moscow turned "you" into the Moscow
Man. And there is no mystery in the Moscow Man seeing Moscow, what
the hell else is the Moscow Man supposed to see?
If you want a more detailed answer as to why you saw Moscow I'd
have to start talking about why the Helsinki Man (and you are the
Helsinki Man even though the Helsinki Man is not you) agreed to
walk into the duplicating chamber in the first place. And I'd have
to start talking about the history of Moscow and why a city was
built where it was and why it took the shape it did. But I don't
see how getting into that will bring any philosophical enlightenment.
John K Clark
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