On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 10 Oct 2014, at 20:37, Samiya Illias wrote: > > > > On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:43 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On 10 Oct 2014, at 00:21, John Mikes wrote: >> >> Samiya, I did not participate in the sequence about your wisdom on the >> list, because you did not refer to my question: WHAT, WHEN, and HOW did it >> occur that you first thought of the existence of God? (I suggested tha it >> was your Mummy and at your age as a baby when you were taught to pray, >> giving you the overtone of your thinking. Later on you may have expanded >> into the wisdom your father was studting.) I am not a Bible-scholar, >> consider the >> >> Jewish Bible a compendium of earlier tales from (mostly mid-eastern) >> people - then the >> Christian Bible a second tier leaving out things and adding Jesus-related >> stories, (attached some modifications from reform-thinking), while >> >> some hundred years after Jesus the Prophet Mohammad presented the Quran >> as the work of Allah. >> >> We are not capable of thinking otherwise than in our human logic PLUS >> restricted to our 'knowledge-base' we (to date) accumulated and believe. >> Teleology - the AIM of the World - is beyond that. >> What I believe in my gnostic thinking is a "WORLD" of infinite complexity >> of which we got only limited glimpses - even those not correctly >> understood. >> >> >> That's exactly how the arithmetical truth looks like from the perspective >> of the universal numbers. >> >> >> >> >> Of this 'treasure' of "knowledge" we THINK we know the World. Well, we >> don't. >> >> >> Nor do they. But the wisest know they don't know. >> >> >> >> We don't know what is good, or bad, >> >> >> I agree if you mean the moral good or moral bad and other theories, but >> basically we know very well what is good and bad. I agree that if we look >> at the details, it can look a bit like the Mandelbrot set, but for the main >> things I think all the mammals knows the difference between good (like >> eating, mating, dancing, ...) and bad (sick, desperate, broken, burning, >> etc.). >> Now the good divides into the good good and the bad good, and the bad >> divides into the good bad, and the bad bad. >> Amateur of wines and beers knows things around this. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> what (so far) unknowable factors do influence whatever happens in >> addition to those we (think) we know. If there is a 'Godly' teleology, our >> human logic asks: Why did a 'Creator' not create it as it is to be finally, >> but that would go into your prohibition of questioning God. >> >> >> Samiya, does the Quran prohibits questioning God? >> Do you think we can avoid questioning when praying? >> > > No, rather it exhorts us to think deeply. > [3: 191=192 Translator: Sahih International] Indeed, in the creation of > the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are > signs for those of understanding. Who remember Allah while standing or > sitting or [lying] on their sides and give thought to the creation of the > heavens and the earth, [saying], "Our Lord, You did not create this > aimlessly; exalted are You [above such a thing]; then protect us from the > punishment of the Fire. > > Prophet Abraham's faith is greatly praised in the Quran. Consider the > following verses about him: > *[*2:260 Translator: Pickthall] And when Abraham said (unto his Lord): My > Lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead, He said: Dost thou not > believe? Abraham said: Yea, but (I ask) in order that my heart may be at > ease. (His Lord) said: Take four of the birds and cause them to incline > unto thee, then place a part of them on each hill, then call them, they > will come to thee in haste, and know that Allah is Mighty, Wise. > > [6:74-78 Translator: Pickthall*]* (Remember) when Abraham said unto his > father Azar: Takest thou idols for gods? Lo! I see thee and thy folk in > error manifest. Thus did We show Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and > the earth that he might be of those possessing certainty: When the night > grew dark upon him he beheld a star . He said: This is my Lord. But when it > set, he said: I love not things that set. And when he saw the moon > uprising, he exclaimed: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: Unless > my Lord guide me, I surely shall become one of the folk who are astray. And > when he saw the sun uprising, he cried: This is my Lord! This is greater! > And when it set he exclaimed: O my people! Lo! I am free from all that ye > associate (with Him). > > > OK, that is a bit of platonism. Truth is beyond all representations, and > the physical might be a representation, in fact an unknown sum on > infinities of representations. > > > > > PS: in 6:76, the word that's translated as star I think should be > translated as planet. > > And I think the following verses partially address the question John Mikes > hesitates to ask: > [33:72-73 Translator: Pickthall] Lo! We offered the trust unto the > heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and > were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a > fool. So Allah punisheth hypocritical men and hypocritical women, and > idolatrous men and idolatrous women. But Allah pardoneth believing men and > believing women, and Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. > > > > But is it not idolatrous (I ask) to pretend that one book got it all, and > all others are wrongdoers constructions? > I do not believe or state any such thing. I keep affirming that many books and many prophets came throughout the ages. And I do not worship the Quran. I worship Allah (The Deity) who sent the Quran for our guidance, and because it is from Allah and for our guidance, I take it very seriously. I also respect other scriptures as from God, but as they have suffered human alterations, I rarely use them and when I do, I cross-check with what the Quran says about the same topic, simply because the Quran has not suffered change. What's idolatrous about that? > Human are easily credulous. They can believe that the best medicinal plant > is a dangerous product which has to be made illegal! > > You can use the Quran as a guide to the truth, but you cannot equate it > with the truth, you can't appropriate the truth, only share experiences, > and, if only to be able to listen genuinely to others, you need to be able > to doubt, perhaps not the root of your belief, but the shape the beliefs > can take for some possible other believers or hopers. > Of course > > Some truth go without saying. Some truth become falsities once asserted. > The theological is full of things like that. > You keep asserting that. Some day I might understand what you mean by it :) Samiya > > Bruno > > > > > > Samiya > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I disagree with Brent's "random" - I deny the concept at all - changes >> are all deterministic whether we know the details, or not. >> >> >> In the big picture, I agree. from inside, the frontier between the >> deterministic and the non deterministic is infinitely complex. >> >> >> I don't repeat the chorus: who created the Creator? >> >> >> A swarm of numbers. >> >> >> >> >> (Again a point way beyond our mental capabilities). >> >> >> To be sure, yes, to grasp as a possible theory, it is different. You >> can't use an argument for something beyond our mental capabilities as a >> refutation of a theory. This would no more be agnosticism, but use of a >> metaphysical principle to discard a class of theories, without argument. >> >> The point being here that numbers can see their own limitations, and >> grasp that truth extends properly their justifiability abilities. >> >> >> >> Human science works on theories - explanations of the unexplained - >> axioms - necessary conditions for the theories to work - and consequences - >> reduced to the level of the up-to-date functioning of our mental capablity. >> Evidence is in the eye of the beholder. >> >> >> Absolutely so :) >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> I find it remarkable that your Quran-quote extendes to geography >> discovered way after (into?) Hedzhra also the cosmology formulated during >> the recent times and chemistry of the last 100 years (ozon?) - maybe they >> are included only in the paraphernalia. >> I would love to read about the other animals as well including >> non-terrestrials. >> >> Have a good time, and forgive my interruption >> >> John Mikes >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 11:35 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> What is your position on teleology? Do you think that there is a cause >>> or purpose for everything? >>> Also, what do you think of this: >>> http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/08/teleology-purpose-built-universe.html >>> >>> >>> Samiya >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 7:30 AM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> On 10/8/2014 5:07 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 2:50 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 10/8/2014 10:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 07 Oct 2014, at 20:17, meekerdb wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 10/7/2014 1:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 06 Oct 2014, at 20:15, meekerdb wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Here's an interesting interview of a philosopher who is interested in >>>>> the question of whether God exists. The interesting thing about it, for >>>>> this list, is that "God" is implicitly the god of theism, and is not >>>>> "one's >>>>> reason for existence" or "the unprovable truths of arithmetic". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> How do you know that? How could you know that. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I read the interview. For example >>>>> >>>>> *D.G.: I’m not a believer, so I’m not in a position to say. First of >>>>> all, it’s worth noting that some of the biggest empirical challenges don’t >>>>> come from science but from common features of life. Perhaps the hardest >>>>> case for believers is the Problem of Evil: The question of how a >>>>> benevolent >>>>> God could allow the existence of evil in the world, both natural evils >>>>> like >>>>> devastating earthquakes and human evils like the Holocaust, has always >>>>> been >>>>> a great challenge to faith in God. There is, of course, a long history of >>>>> responses to that problem that goes back to Job. While nonbelievers (like >>>>> me) consider this a major problem, believers have, for the most part, >>>>> figured out how to accommodate themselves to it.* >>>>> >>>>> It's obvious that Garber is talking about the god of theism. If he >>>>> were referring to some abstract principle or set of unprovable truths >>>>> there >>>>> would be no "problem of evil" for that god. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On the contrary, computationalism will relate qualia like pain and >>>>> evil related things with what numbers can endure in a fist person >>>>> perspective yet understand that this enduring is ineffable and hard to >>>>> justify and be confronted with that very problem. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But under computationlism it's not a problem. The is no presumption >>>>> that a computable world is morally good by human standards. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Under computationalism, all possible worlds and all possible >>>> observers exist and there's nothing God can do about it. God can no more >>>> make certain observers or observations not exist than make 2 + 2 = 3. >>>> However, a benevolent theistic god under computationalism (with access to >>>> unlimited computing resources) could nonetheless "save" beings who existed >>>> in other worlds by continuing the computation of their minds. >>>> >>>> >>>> You say "could" as though he had a choice, meaning He's not part of the >>>> computable world and is not one of the "all possible observers". Seems to >>>> me that he will have to both save everyone and also torture everyone in >>>> hell. >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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