On 13 Oct 2014, at 19:37, Samiya Illias wrote:
On 13-Oct-2014, at 8:54 pm, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 12 Oct 2014, at 18:36, John Clark wrote:
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com
> wrote:
> Consider the following verses of Chapter 75:16-19 Stir not thy
tongue herewith to hasten it. Lo! upon Us (resteth) the putting
together thereof and the reading thereof. And when We read it,
follow thou the reading; Then lo! upon Us (resteth) the
explanation thereof.
As long as we're quoting the Quran how about 2:176
"God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about
it are in extreme schism" .
READ: God obeys to truth if God is some maw in reality, God already
= Truth).
Then it just say that liar and wrong people are in trouble.
or 2:190-93
"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places
from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. . . .
if they attack you put them to the sword".
Defend yourself against the liars.
Something like "slay them wherever you find them" is a biit
theologically problematic, and as samiya said, Muhammad wrote this
during a war, and can't concentrate enough on what God told him. he
is human, and probably influenced by temporal problems, I would
guess.
Correction: I wrote that these verses were revealed as instructions
during war.
OK. Sorry.
All verses in the Quran are the exact revealed words without any
changes by Mohammed or anyone else.
The problem for me, is that, if I open my mind up to accept this
literally, then I automatically open my mind to the possibility that
Satan made some changes in it.
Are you willing to try this exercise? Find the verses added by Satan.
(assuming all this)
Mohammed is a human.
You attribute him an implicit deity character when you believe he is
not fallible, as all humans are.
or 3:12:
"Say to the unbelievers: 'You shall be overthrown and driven into
Hell--an evil resting place!'" .
Yes, those who mock truth build their own destructions, like those
who lie about petrol and cannabis.
Unfortuanetly that can take time ...
Or 3:118
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They
will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your
ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their
mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal" .
Maybe Muhammad get paranoid. Or you can interpret it by "don't try
to convince the studdborn". Here, I would have more time, I would
consult many translations.
Or 5:57
"Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels"
Don't try to make dialog with people coming up with 2+2=5.
The question is not "is this the most common interpretation of the
Quran, it is "is this the correct interpretation of the Quran".
That very crucial point was debated by the 8-9-10-11th centuries,
among serious theologians and philosophers, at the time the "real"
debate (between Plato's and Aristotle's conception of reality) was
still discussed.
or 5:80-82
"You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to
the faithful are the Jews and the pagans, and that the nearest in
affection to them are those who say: 'We are Christians'"
Well, not sure Samiya will agree with me, but this type of ad
hominem statement has no place in a sacred text.
Well as it is mentioned in the Quran, it must be the general rule of
the thumb. Will need to study the historic general trend of
individuals and nations towards/against Muslims.
OK. The bible does that too, like the gospels. No problem with non
literal interpretation of the sacred text, and historical perspective,
but beware those who will take some verses literally.
It contradicts also the surat of the poet and the surat of the table.
I have no problem. I would be Muslim I would explain this by the
fact that Muhammad is a human being, or Löbian entity, which can
always get wrong, or that someone added this, perhaps a Christian.
If you were a Muslim you would not doubt the wisdom and knowledge of
the author of the Quran.
I guess. But as wise and knowledgeable he was, he was a human, and all
humans are fallible.
I can accept as axiom for God that God is not fallible.
It is about infinitely harder to accept that a human is not fallible,
or that you can know that he has not failed.
Rather, you would try to understand why is it so.
For the pagans, I understand, but with comp, paganism and
resistance to the argument-per-authority seems to be encouraged.
Or 6:49:
"Those that deny Our revelations shall be punished for their
misdeeds" .
This is either an argument-per-authority, or a trivial statement
that departing from truth leads to catastrophes. We need much more
translation to judge this, especially that in those time, such an
assertion apparently irreligious might only be a poetical assertion
on some acceptable axiomatic of truth.
or 3:149-51
"We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. . . . The
Fire shall be their home"
Same for this. If you believe that 5+5= 4, "we" shall put the mess
in your bank account and internet.
Quite terrifying the modern analogy :-)
It is the very general idea that although truth might not always be
pleasant, lies and non corrected errors can only postpone the
unpleasantness and augment its intensity.
It is terrifying but not despairing as we can learn to accept our
errors, and understand the fake nature of the power of the lies,
eventually.
Bruno
Samiya
We need not just many good translations, but a "style" of the
period analysis.
Bruno
John K Clark
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-
l...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
