> On 14-Oct-2014, at 11:24 pm, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > >> On 13 Oct 2014, at 19:37, Samiya Illias wrote: >> >> >> >>> On 13-Oct-2014, at 8:54 pm, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 12 Oct 2014, at 18:36, John Clark wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Consider the following verses of Chapter 75:16-19 Stir not thy >>>>> > tongue herewith to hasten it. Lo! upon Us (resteth) the putting >>>>> > together thereof and the reading thereof. And when We read it, >>>>> > follow thou the reading; Then lo! upon Us (resteth) the explanation >>>>> > thereof. >>>> >>>> As long as we're quoting the Quran how about 2:176 >>>> >>>> "God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about it are in >>>> extreme schism” . >>> >>> READ: God obeys to truth if God is some maw in reality, God already = >>> Truth). >>> >>> Then it just say that liar and wrong people are in trouble. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> or 2:190–93 >>>> >>>> “Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which >>>> they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. . . . if they attack you >>>> put them to the sword". >>> >>> Defend yourself against the liars. >>> >>> Something like "slay them wherever you find them" is a biit theologically >>> problematic, and as samiya said, Muhammad wrote this during a war, and >>> can't concentrate enough on what God told him. he is human, and probably >>> influenced by temporal problems, I would guess. >> >> Correction: I wrote that these verses were revealed as instructions during >> war. > > OK. Sorry. > > > >> All verses in the Quran are the exact revealed words without any changes by >> Mohammed or anyone else. > > The problem for me, is that, if I open my mind up to accept this literally, > then I automatically open my mind to the possibility that Satan made some > changes in it.
How? If you literally open your mind to accept that the Quran is 'exact revealed words without any changes by Mohammed or anyone else ' , then are you not contradicting yourself when you say that 'then I automatically open my mind to the possibility that Satan made some changes in it ' ??? > > Are you willing to try this exercise? Find the verses added by Satan. > (assuming all this) > > Mohammed is a human. Yes Muhammad is a human and we bear witness to that. > > You attribute him an implicit deity character when you believe he is not > fallible, as all humans are. I say that he did not fail in his mission of communicating the message because God made foolproof arrangements to ensure its communication to Muhammad's people through Muhammad, and through his companions and other Muslims to the rest of the world. The responsibility of ensuring that the Quran stays free if changes is not left upon us humans. If it had been left to humans, it would have suffered changes just as much as any other scripture. > > > > > >> >>> >>>> >>>> or 3:12: >>>> >>>> “Say to the unbelievers: ‘You shall be overthrown and driven into Hell—an >>>> evil resting place!’” . >>> >>> >>> Yes, those who mock truth build their own destructions, like those who lie >>> about petrol and cannabis. Your passion for cannabis is amusing :) >>> Unfortuanetly that can take time ... >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Or 3:118 >>>> >>>> “Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will >>>> spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their >>>> hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is >>>> the hatred which their breasts conceal” . >>> >>> Maybe Muhammad get paranoid. Or you can interpret it by "don't try to >>> convince the studdborn". Here, I would have more time, I would consult many >>> translations. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Or 5:57 >>>> >>>> “Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels" >>> >>> Don't try to make dialog with people coming up with 2+2=5. >>> >>> The question is not "is this the most common interpretation of the Quran, >>> it is "is this the correct interpretation of the Quran". >>> >>> That very crucial point was debated by the 8-9-10-11th centuries, among >>> serious theologians and philosophers, at the time the "real" debate >>> (between Plato's and Aristotle's conception of reality) was still discussed. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> or 5:80–82 >>>> >>>> "You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the >>>> faithful are the Jews and the pagans, and that the nearest in affection to >>>> them are those who say: ‘We are Christians’” >>> >>> Well, not sure Samiya will agree with me, but this type of ad hominem >>> statement has no place in a sacred text. >> >> Well as it is mentioned in the Quran, it must be the general rule of the >> thumb. Will need to study the historic general trend of individuals and >> nations towards/against Muslims. > > OK. The bible does that too, like the gospels. No problem with non literal > interpretation of the sacred text, and historical perspective, but beware > those who will take some verses literally. > > > > >> >> >>> It contradicts also the surat of the poet and the surat of the table. >>> >>> I have no problem. I would be Muslim I would explain this by the fact that >>> Muhammad is a human being, or Löbian entity, which can always get wrong, or >>> that someone added this, perhaps a Christian. >> >> If you were a Muslim you would not doubt the wisdom and knowledge of the >> author of the Quran. > > I guess. But as wise and knowledgeable he was, he was a human, and all humans > are fallible. Yes we agree that Muhammad was human. In fact, we bear witness that Muhammad, Jesus, Solomon, David, Moses, Joseph, Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, Job, Noah, Adam and all other prophets sent to human communities were humans. They lived amongst their people, preached and showed by their example that it is humanly possible to keep duty to God and live our purpose. > > I can accept as axiom for God that God is not fallible. Agree! Please note that we believe the Quran is from God. Muhammad is not the author of the Quran. > > It is about infinitely harder to accept that a human is not fallible, or that > you can know that he has not failed. > Agree again. You see that is why even though we have the collection of ahadith ( sayings and actions of Prophet Mohammad and his companions) we do not place those books on the same level as the Quran. Those are highly valued historical works but they are not infallible. We always understand and accept that there can be mistakes in those works as those are human efforts. > >> Rather, you would try to understand why is it so. >>> >>> For the pagans, I understand, but with comp, paganism and resistance to the >>> argument-per-authority seems to be encouraged. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Or 6:49: >>>> >>>> “Those that deny Our revelations shall be punished for their misdeeds” . >>> >>> This is either an argument-per-authority, or a trivial statement that >>> departing from truth leads to catastrophes. We need much more translation >>> to judge this, especially that in those time, such an assertion apparently >>> irreligious might only be a poetical assertion on some acceptable axiomatic >>> of truth. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> or 3:149–51 >>>> >>>> "We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. . . . The Fire >>>> shall be their home” >>> >>> >>> Same for this. If you believe that 5+5= 4, "we" shall put the mess in your >>> bank account and internet. >> >> Quite terrifying the modern analogy :-) > > > It is the very general idea that although truth might not always be pleasant, > lies and non corrected errors can only postpone the unpleasantness and > augment its intensity. > > It is terrifying but not despairing as we can learn to accept our errors, and > understand the fake nature of the power of the lies, eventually. Agree. Samiya > > Bruno > > >> >> Samiya >> >>> We need not just many good translations, but a "style" of the period >>> analysis. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
