On 12 Oct 2014, at 17:30, Samiya Illias wrote:
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:55 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 10 Oct 2014, at 05:40, Samiya Illias wrote:
On 10-Oct-2014, at 3:21 am, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote:
Samiya, I did not participate in the sequence about your wisdom on
the list, because you did not refer to my question: WHAT, WHEN,
and HOW did it occur that you first thought of the existence of
God? (I suggested tha it was your Mummy and at your age as a baby
when you were taught to pray, giving you the overtone of your
thinking. Later on you may have expanded into the wisdom your
father was studting.)
I tried to answer, to which you've referred to above. Beyond that,
even I don't know. I suppose I was always blessed with faith, and
life experiences and the wondrous world of scientific discovery
only served to increase the faith and make me value the blessing of
faith and scripture!
I am not a Bible-scholar, consider the
Jewish Bible a compendium of earlier tales from (mostly mid-
eastern) people - then the
Christian Bible a second tier leaving out things and adding Jesus-
related stories, (attached some modifications from reform-
thinking), while
some hundred years after Jesus the Prophet Mohammad presented the
Quran as the work of Allah.
We believe, as we have been informed in the Quran, that Prophet
Mohammad was not given a new religion. Rather, it is a continuation
and repetition of the same message which was sent throughout the
ages through many messengers to all nations. Prophet Mohammed is
unique in that he is the last in the series of messengers and the
Quran revealed through him is a message of warning and good tidings
for all humans and djinns. Therefore, it's divinely preserved in
its original language and therefore it is important that we study
it diligently.
Mohammad was a man. All man can fail, he is not a god. You can't be
sure it was always listening well, or even understanding him. My
reading of the Quran makes me doubt he was under the same
inspiration. The text is historical, and not easy to understand,
translate or interpret. It is a witnessing of many part of the old
bible, and the gospels, but it remains a text, which can only
scratch the surface.
Consider the following verses of Chapter 75:16-19 Stir not thy
tongue herewith to hasten it. Lo! upon Us (resteth) the putting
together thereof and the reading thereof. And when We read it,
follow thou the reading; Then lo! upon Us (resteth) the explanation
thereof.
We believe the arabic Quran was inspired, preserved, transmitted and
protected from changes or alterations under the command of God. It
was not a human act by Prophet Muhammad. He received and conveyed
the message verbatim.
I think that this is close to a form of idolatry. It is a mixing of
the celestial and the temporal. It is very dangerous to do in the quest.
Yes, as I had mentioned in my last post, just above your comment
here, the message revealed was not new. It was a continuation of the
message sent through all prophets over the ages. So, of course,
there is similarity of content.
Yes, and there is a similarity in content in all honest introspecting
machine's discourses.
If I can be of any help in your reading of the Quran, please don't
hesitate to ask.
Thanks,
Bruno
Scriptures are revealed for our information and guidance. If I may
quote an example from the Quran, the purpose of scriptures is that
they be studied:
Holy Quran 62:5
------------------
مَثَلُ الَّذِينَ حُمِّلُوا
التَّوْرَاةَ ثُمَّ لَمْ
يَحْمِلُوهَا كَمَثَلِ الْحِمَارِ
يَحْمِلُ أَسْفَارًا ۚ بِئْسَ مَثَلُ
الْقَوْمِ الَّذِينَ كَذَّبُوا
بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَاللَّهُ لَا
يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ
'The example of those who were entrusted with the Torah and then
did not take it on is like that of a donkey who carries volumes [of
books]. Wretched is the example of the people who deny the signs of
Allah. And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.'
We are not capable of thinking otherwise than in our human logic
PLUS restricted to our 'knowledge-base' we (to date) accumulated
and believe.
Teleology - the AIM of the World - is beyond that.
What I believe in my gnostic thinking is a "WORLD" of infinite
complexity of which we got only limited glimpses - even those not
correctly understood. Of this 'treasure' of "knowledge" we THINK
we know the World. Well, we don't.
We don't know what is good, or bad, what (so far) unknowable
factors do influence whatever happens in addition to those we
(think) we know. If there is a 'Godly' teleology, our human logic
asks: Why did a 'Creator' not create it as it is to be finally,
but that would go into your prohibition of questioning God. I
disagree with Brent's "random" - I deny the concept at all -
changes are all deterministic whether we know the details, or not.
I don't repeat the chorus: who created the Creator? (Again a point
way beyond our mental capabilities).
Human science works on theories - explanations of the unexplained
- axioms - necessary conditions for the theories to work - and
consequences - reduced to the level of the up-to-date functioning
of our mental capablity.
Evidence is in the eye of the beholder.
I find it remarkable that your Quran-quote extendes to geography
discovered way after (into?) Hedzhra also the cosmology formulated
during the recent times and chemistry of the last 100 years
(ozon?) - maybe they are included only in the paraphernalia.
If I may quote again three verses from Chapter 41:
Holy Quran 41:3
------------------
كِتَابٌ فُصِّلَتْ آيَاتُهُ قُرْآنًا
عَرَبِيًّا لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ
A Book whose verses have been detailed, an Arabic Qur'an for a
people who know,
Holy Quran 41:4
------------------
بَشِيرًا وَنَذِيرًا فَأَعْرَضَ
أَكْثَرُهُمْ فَهُمْ لَا يَسْمَعُونَ
As a giver of good tidings and a warner; but most of them turn
away, so they do not hear.
But Allah will handle that situation all by IT/HIM/HERself, he does
not give to some humans the right to handle that in his name.
That would be the given of a right of authoritative argument, and
all the fight.
Only bad faith use authoritative argument.
How does this verse lead you to ask the above two sentences? I agree
with your first sentence that Allah will handle, but I do not
understand the next two statements.
Samiya
Holy Quran 41:53
------------------
سَنُرِيهِمْ آيَاتِنَا فِي الْآفَاقِ
وَفِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ حَتَّىٰ
يَتَبَيَّنَ لَهُمْ أَنَّهُ
الْحَقُّ ۗ أَوَلَمْ يَكْفِ بِرَبِّكَ
أَنَّهُ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ
We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves
until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not
sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a
Witness?
I can agree with that!
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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