On 07 Dec 2014, at 22:17, LizR wrote:
On 8 December 2014 at 01:30, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
On 06 Dec 2014, at 10:37, LizR wrote:
That's a curious question. The ruins and record indicate that there
was no ancient civilisation that had anything like the knowledge or
resources of modern day technology. For example, no ancient
civilisation discovered the use of fossil fuels or nuclear power.
One could argue that these things aren't in fact good for modern
civilisation, but since we don't know how things will work out that
would be presumptuous.
For the nuclear resources, I follow you. For the use of petrol (dead
plants), arguments (in favor of Hemp, 'course) already mentioned
that it was not sustainable, and that it would disrupt life
equilibrium in the middle run (a point made already by Henry Ford).
My point is that using fossil fuels MAY have bridged the gap from
preindustrial society to a sustainable postindustrial one - we don't
know yet.
I think so for fossil fuels other than petrol. And we would have use
living plants, we would have still used petrol, but with a means of an
economical regulation based on fair or fairer competition. The problem
is that once we get criminals organizing the market, we lost all the
regulating factors, and the society get pyramidal in the Monty way.
This leads to social crisis, and life becomes hard. In UK the number
of people having food problem has gone from 200,000 to 900,000, for
example. The current austerity is nonsense, but we are all hostage of
bandits.
The fact is, all but the poorest people in the Western world has
things that would have been unimaginable to the richest people of
the ancient world. I would say that this does make our civilisation
superior in important ways;
It makes us more competent, but plausibly less intelligent.
Yes, I agree that is at least possible.
I would certain prefer to be alive now than even 100 years ago.
May be. May be not. It is very hard to evaluate. There are no
absolute point of comparison. People from that period might get very
depressed if living in our urban cities for a while.
Yes, I have to admit I was thinking *I* would prefer it - but *I*
know about life now. As someone said in a TV show once (I forget
which) in which someone from the past visited the present - "So what
did they bring back from the Moon? Some rocks? That doesn't sound
very interesting...:"
Not talking about the food, that such time traveller would consider
insipid, not even swallowable. They would not beat the heat system,
because what is better than a wood fire. Then kids would be happy just
seeing planes and the technology, but might understand that this does
not simplify our lives, but make it more complex. Then the poor can be
depressed, because we keep insulting the rich, but some poor like to
dream that one day they might become rich, and that dream is forbidden
today, which left no choice. Today, we want respect everybody
(political correctness), and I think this would depressed most people
of the past. Political correctness is a very depressing phenomenon.
Take the jewish people, I am not sure they can say that there has been
any progress for them all along the years, except perhaps with the
creation of Israel, which might give a minute hope for the time
traveller, but then we know that it is not that simple, and that the
future is still not clear. Thay are still persecuted, in and out of
Israel. The progresses are that we have now stupidity + technology,
like bombs and the net, which for some people amplify the misery and
the problems.
But then after 1500 years of interdiction of theology, and imposition
of the materialist christianism, it is not astonishing. We have
regress on the human science, since that time, except for the birth of
democracy, but they are young and already very sick today. I still
hope we can progress, but as long as the lies on health, physical,
mental and spiritual continue, the progress are not even on the horizon.
Indeed 100 years ago the routine gall bladder surgery I had a
couple of years ago would have probably killed me (always assuming
I'd survived childhood illnesses, childbirth and so on).
We are better for the survival, but we might be astonished for the
quality of life, even of the poors. It is very hard to judge. We
have much more depression and suicides, we have much more elderly
people abandoned by their family. We have much more fake
conviviality and superficial happiness. We have new fears and new
subject of despair (like atomic bombs, pollution, prohibition, ...).
I just mean that I am not completely persuaded that the
technological progresses made us more happy. The 20th century has
also been a peak of inhumanity, notably through genocide, very cruel
wars, including the cold one, rise of unemployment, etc. So I am not
sure, I dunno, may be we can't really answer this.
I find myself agreeing with you. I was trying to counteract the idea
of a "golden age" - that the past was much better than the present.
Some past, in some place, for some people. Today, as islam and atheism
(the non agnostic one) illustrates (alas) that we are at the peak of
obscurantism. It is not Islam per se, nor atheism, but the fact that
parrots repeating without understanding are numerous, and thinking is
not welcome there (as I have personnally see with some kind of strong
atheism and "free-thinker", which are more dogmatic than christians,
even under inquisition).
Proportionnally, much more people can eat when hungry, but we are much
more numerous also, and that more poor people starving than during all
preceding period.
(Certainly I might well have died horribly in various ways in the
past before reaching my present age, but even so... to automatically
extrapolate from what I said to "we are therefore happier now" would
be wrong.
OK. There so many factors in a human life, that it is hard to compare.
Bruno
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