On 12/8/2014 2:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 07 Dec 2014, at 22:17, LizR wrote:
On 8 December 2014 at 01:30, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be
<mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> wrote:
On 06 Dec 2014, at 10:37, LizR wrote:
That's a curious question. The ruins and record indicate that there was no
ancient
civilisation that had anything like the knowledge or resources of modern day
technology. For example, no ancient civilisation discovered the use of
fossil
fuels or nuclear power. One could argue that these things aren't in fact
good for
modern civilisation, but since we don't know how things will work out that
would
be presumptuous.
For the nuclear resources, I follow you. For the use of petrol (dead
plants),
arguments (in favor of Hemp, 'course) already mentioned that it was not
sustainable, and that it would disrupt life equilibrium in the middle run
(a point
made already by Henry Ford).
My point is that using fossil fuels MAY have bridged the gap from preindustrial society
to a sustainable postindustrial one - we don't know yet.
I think so for fossil fuels other than petrol. And we would have use living plants, we
would have still used petrol, but with a means of an economical regulation based on fair
or fairer competition. The problem is that once we get criminals organizing the market,
we lost all the regulating factors, and the society get pyramidal in the Monty way. This
leads to social crisis, and life becomes hard. In UK the number of people having food
problem has gone from 200,000 to 900,000, for example. The current austerity is
nonsense, but we are all hostage of bandits.
The fact is, all but the poorest people in the Western world has things
that would
have been unimaginable to the richest people of the ancient world. I would
say that
this does make our civilisation superior in important ways;
It makes us more competent, but plausibly less intelligent.
Yes, I agree that is at least possible.
I would certain prefer to be alive now than even 100 years ago.
May be. May be not. It is very hard to evaluate. There are no absolute
point of
comparison. People from that period might get very depressed if living in
our urban
cities for a while.
Yes, I have to admit I was thinking *I* would prefer it - but *I* know about life now.
As someone said in a TV show once (I forget which) in which someone from the past
visited the present - "So what did they bring back from the Moon? Some rocks? That
doesn't sound very interesting...:"
Not talking about the food, that such time traveller would consider insipid, not even
swallowable. They would not beat the heat system, because what is better than a wood
fire. Then kids would be happy just seeing planes and the technology, but might
understand that this does not simplify our lives, but make it more complex. Then the
poor can be depressed, because we keep insulting the rich, but some poor like to dream
that one day they might become rich, and that dream is forbidden today, which left no
choice. Today, we want respect everybody (political correctness), and I think this would
depressed most people of the past. Political correctness is a very depressing
phenomenon. Take the jewish people, I am not sure they can say that there has been any
progress for them all along the years, except perhaps with the creation of Israel, which
might give a minute hope for the time traveller, but then we know that it is not that
simple, and that the future is still not clear. Thay are still persecuted, in and out of
Israel.
But the progress is that they get to persecute the Palestinians. ;-(
The progresses are that we have now stupidity + technology, like bombs and the net,
which for some people amplify the misery and the problems.
But then after 1500 years of interdiction of theology, and imposition of the materialist
christianism, it is not astonishing. We have regress on the human science, since that
time, except for the birth of democracy, but they are young and already very sick today.
I still hope we can progress, but as long as the lies on health, physical, mental and
spiritual continue, the progress are not even on the horizon.
Democracy was invented a long time ago. The additional advance of the Enlightenment was
the recognition of individual rights and values and the idea that government's only
legitimate function is to serve its citizens. This idea is what seems to be missing in
the middle east where democracy seems to mean the majority gets to impose whatever it
chooses. This is a direct consequence basing government on religion. What you call the
"imposition of materialist christianism" is the recognition of freedom of personal
conscious from state imposed religion.
The other great advancement in human ethics has been the abolishing of slavery and the
recognition of the equality of women (still a work in progress).
Brent
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