On 08 Jan 2015, at 18:46, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Ultimate reality? What would make one reality more real than
another?
> Ultimate, primary, fundamental means that it is assumed in the
axioms, and not derivable from logically simpler axioms.
If you had said "fundamental reality" I would not have objected, but
the foundations of a skyscraper are not more real than the upper
stories.
I agree, always said so.
>> The open question is rather mundane, it is what the English 3
letter word "G-O-D" means.
> But it is a simple and mudane facts that it means quite different
things according to time, place, culture
So is there any time place or culture where you would be willing to
say in a loud clear unequivocal voice "I do not believe in God"?
Could you ever say those words with no ifs, ands, or buts, or would
the words always stick in your throat?
I believe in God.
Always have. Took me years to understand what my parent meant by
atheism, but eventually I understood they meant only that they did not
believe in the institutionalized notion of God in the culture around
us).
Nor did I.
> Only Fundamentalist christians, fundamentalist muslims and bigot
atheists [...]
You've called me a "bigot atheist" before so I asked myself if it
was true. Well, a bigot is a person who is intolerant toward those
holding different opinions than ones own, so am I intolerant of
religious people in general? No, I may have contempt for those
particular ideas but don't want people who hold them killed or
imprisoned or punished in any way, except perhaps by being given a
tongue lashing by me on the Everything List.
I am however intolerant of certain religious forces of cruelty
imbecility and ignorance as exemplified by the recent murders of 12
people in Paris because Muslim dimwits didn't like the cartoons they
drew.
I have to much respect for the muslims to even think one second that
they are muslims.
My analysis is that they belong to the nazis of the middle-east, which
spread there probably since the great mufti of Jerusalem sided with
the germans last century.
They called themselves muslims, but that is the problem with name and
institutionalized religion, which is simply a blasphem with regard to
any conception I can have of God, or religion.
That is the kind of thing which can happen, because we have abandoned
religion and theology in the hands of the authoritarians, which is
pure non-sense. religion is the place where the argument per-authority
is the most locally fruitful (to get power), and the most dangerous
for everyone, state and religion.
Of course, as a theoretician, I distinguish religion, and the human
abuse of religion.
I am also intolerant of those who murdered 132 children and 16 of
their teachers in a school in
Pakistan a few weeks ago because they didn't like the religious
views of their parents; the radio conversation between the Muslim
child murderers and their bosses were overheard, "We have killed all
the children in the auditorium. What do we do now?", the answer was
"Waite for the army to arrive, kill them, and then blow yourself
up", and that is exactly what they did. I am intolerant of that sort
of behavior even if it was caused by religious belief, and if that
makes be a bigot then so be it.
I meant you are bigot on your atheist beliefs: that God means only
what the judeo-islamo-christian mean by it, and that there is a
fundamental physical universe. Bigot are not necessarily intolerant,
but they cannot change their mind and hold strongly to their belief.
At least that was what I meant.
One of my aunt was said to be a bigot: she was praying all the time,
going to the church all the time, saying "my god" every two minutes,
etc. But she never complained about my parents being atheists (when
they were young, as they became more agnostic later).
> In my personal opinion if you mean something that is not
omniscient not omnipotent not omnipresent not conscious is as dumb
as a stump and is not even a being it would only be good manners to
use a word other than God as that word is already taken for
something else
> Sorry, but here even the wiki agrees with me, like all book on
comparative theology. the word God was used by the pre-christians
platonist, also, to which I clearly refer.
And those pre-Christians performed sacrifices,
I was thinking of Parmenides, Socrates, Plato, Theaetetus, ... They
did not do sacrifices, and they doubted the notion of God for reason
close to the doubt we can have of a set of all sets. They reason, and
even the most mystic among them never use their personal experiences
as an argument. I was thinking about the free scientists who created
the field of theology, which did influence most theologians, even
among christians, jewish, and muslims, although they use special
wording to go through the authoritarianism around, like the
mathematician did in the USSR. Eventually, they chosed the metaphysics
of Aristotle, and I think they were wrong on this, which I try to
explain.
human and otherwise, to gain the favor of their "God", and they
built temples to their "God", and they built statues of their "God"
that was supposed to show what "God" looked like. In some cases the
statues seems to have actually become their "God". But how do you
build a statue of the inflation field? Does the inflation field have
a beard?
Where are all these God believers who built no temples, made no
statues, performed no sacrifices and said no prayers that you keep
talking about?
Most remain silent. Like Lao-Tseu said, the wise man remains silent
(on the Tao, & Co.).
or they do theories: read Plotinus, Proclus, Damascius, read the
platonists, the middle-platonists, the neo-platonists. But you can
also read the modern theologians like Jean Trouillard (to name one),
or the Indians, which discovered Mechanism, and got already a glimpse
of the difficulties with materialism. or read Hypatia, etc.
For the greek platonists: the study of theology begun by a serious
study of mathematics, astronomy, and music. for some of them, the
"mathematicalist" like Xeusippes, theology *is* mathematics. Indeed
they created the field.
Where are all the leaders who say they did NOT hear God's voice
telling them what to do?
Plato, Plotinus, etc.
Where are all the nations or city-states or tribes who say God is
NOT on our side in this war?
The same. In occident, religion has become silly, once the academy has
been made close, and the neoplatonist exiled or killed.
Bruno
John K Clark
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