Well we will never agree, you've decided it was free so you conclude it was. You've asked how someone could control a decentralized anonymous market. I did tell you how which you did conflate with government intervention where I only said you just had to control the material supply chain, nowhere did I said anything about government. The thing is your free from anything except coercion market you like is bound to be subverted because we don't live in a care bear world.... proof is silkroad is closed. Don't tell me it is the fault of government... thing is it is closed.
Regards Le 14 janv. 2015 01:00, "Telmo Menezes" <[email protected]> a écrit : > > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> >> >> 2015-01-13 16:24 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: >> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 6:14 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2015-01-12 18:01 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ok, I think we ended up deviating from the reason why I introduced the >>>>> silk road theme. >>>>> >>>>> You argued that free markets are not possible, that force is necessary >>>>> to prevent unethical agents from destroying the market. Alberto did to. >>>>> >>>> >>>> You did not provide proof that it is possible and stable and no >>>> powerful agent would in fine control it. >>>> >>> >>> I don't see how I could prove such a thing -- or how anyone could proves >>> such a thing about any system. >>> What I offer is empirical evidence: yes it's possible. It existed and it >>> exists again today. It's been stable for some years, even against a very >>> hostile environment. >>> >>> Could a powerful agent gain control of a decentralised, global and >>> anonymous market? I don't see how. Can you suggest a strategy? >>> >> >> By being the only one able to provide the products... as it is the case >> with drugs such as cocaine and heroine... in the end you sell material >> goods who are not decentralised. >> > > So you're saying that a free market won't work because government > intervention can kill it? > The mafias are the only ones capable of providing some products because of > prohibition, not because of the free market. > > >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I presented silk road as a counter-example. Due to its circumstances, >>>>> the identity of its participants was unknown. It was unknown to >>>>> governments >>>>> and mafias (until the FBI finally figured out a way to crack this >>>>> anonymity). >>>>> >>>>> There was not way to use force on silk road. Mafias could not prevent >>>>> you from selling drugs there by physical violence, >>>>> >>>> >>>> But mafias *used* it... the drug sold on silk road was not from a free >>>> market in the first place, it cannot be rendered free after... >>>> >>> >>> You're using the term "free" as if it were some mystical property like >>> "kosher" or "halal". A free market is simply free from regulation from a >>> central authority, that's all. >>> >> >> Then any illegal market is free... that's nonsensical. >> > > I said that an illegal market could be a free market, not that an illegal > market implies a free market. > > >> Free means everyone has access to it and the same information >> available... that's barely the case with silkroad where only illegal goods >> mainly provided by markets controlled by mafia where available... >> >> >>> The silk road is free from regulation. >>> >> >> Any illegal market is free from regulation.. as they are illegal. >> > > Many illegal market are controlled by illegal central authorities. > > >> >> >>> Anyone can participate, including mafias. If mafias couldn't >>> participate, it wouldn't be a free market. >>> >> >> Well I don't want a free market then... >> > > You should be free not to participate. > > >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> because they had no way of discovering your identity. >>>>> >>>>> Still, silk road did not collapse under unethical sellers receiving >>>>> payment for cannabis and sending packs of dried lawn grass instead. Why? >>>>> Because the reputation system was enough. >>>>> >>>> >>>> If you convince of that... >>>> >>> >>> Do you have any evidence to the contrary? How do you explain the >>> enormous wealth that the creator of the market had amassed in commissions >>> when he was arrested? >>> >> >> Because every he got a tax on every illegal transactions, like a pimp... >> > > He provides an essential service that enables the market and charges a fee > for it. He does not have the power to tax. If his fees become unreasonable, > a competitor will takes his place. This is a crucial point that > distinguishes his actions from taxation. > > The pimp is like the drug cartel: a side-effect of government interference > in private transactions. > > >> >> >>> Surely the thing would collapse quickly if people were being ripped off? >>> >> >> Surely people who wanted to bough anonymously drugs while where they were >> it was difficult were happy sure... you can't go to the hypermart next door >> to buy cocaine... so what ? >> > > So bad behaviour is prevented solely individual self-interest. This is the > entire reason why I brought this topic, to provide a counter-example to > something you and Alberto claim to be impossible. > > >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> That was the point. It has nothing to do with the origin of the drugs >>>>> >>>> >>>> It does, because if the origin is a controlled non-free market, the >>>> enduser market cannot be a free market... do you deny this ? >>>> >>> >>> Only if the participants in the upstream market are prevented from >>> sourcing their wares elsewhere. >>> >> >> Could you give me an adress where cocaine and heroine are harvested and >> transformed in a free environment and where I can buy it being sure all the >> chain was free from coercion ? >> > > This restriction is imposed on some of the products by the government. The > other products are also traded without the market collapsing under > mis-behaviour. > > The fact that a couple of specific drugs have monopolistic suppliers > because of the government does not invalidate my argument. It just > distracts from the central point, that you refuse to face. > > >> >> >>> This is not the case with silk road. Even if it's impractical to escape >>> the mafias with things like cocaine and heroin, there are many other >>> classes of drugs that can and are trivially produced and sold on silk road. >>> >> >> So you have proof those drugs where being manufactured free from any >> coercion ? do you ? >> > > It's impossible to have such a proof due to the nature of the market, that > provides string anonymity. I know there's a shop in front of my house that > sells industrial sizes cannabis growing equipment. They have been there for > years, so I assume they have clients. > > >> >> >>> We've been through this, you just refute it with arguments from >>> authority. >>> >> >> I don't, you claim something extraordinary, you have to give evidence of >> your claim. >> > > I did. People could send tea leaves instead of cannabis on silk road with > no consequences. They mostly didn't, because repeated business is more > valuable. This is an easily verifiable fact if you can use google. It is > irrelevant to the relevance of this empirical evidence if the wholesaler of > the goods is a clan of evil alien lizards. > > >> >> >>> Yet it is trivially true. A lot of people admit to growing cannabis in >>> their homes, for example, and it is now legal in several parts of the world. >>> >> >> A lot of people grow cannabis for their personal use, not a lot of people >> at all are dealer of cannabis... and all the dealers I've ever approached >> to buy cannabis, where not growing it themselves... >> > > Cannabis can be grown easily and anywhere. It just doesn't seem to make > economical sense that it would be a viable target for a cartel to control. > How could it prevent smaller local operations from existing? There is no > bottleneck for them to be the gatekeepers. > > >> >> Only where cannabis is *legalized* such thing could be true and verified >> it was free from coercion... any illegal market is bound to be controlled >> at least with how the products are available to it... >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> or on weather they are bad or good for you. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I don't care also, and this is not part of the argument... also I find >>>> it odd to call me a prohibitionist when I explitely says I'm against >>>> prohibition... but it's not because of that that everything is good and >>>> canabis could be sold like chocolate bar in a supermarket. >>>> >>> >>> I did not call you a prohibitionist, nor did I attack or defend the >>> merits of cannabis or any other drug. I entered this discussion purely to >>> give an example on how reputation-based markets can replace force. >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> These things are irrelevant to the argument I was making. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Still I didn't see how silkroad which was an illegal "market", with >>>> product coming for the large part from illegal controlled market, could be >>>> free at all ! >>>> >>> >>> It depends on what you mean by free. For the purpose of my argument it's >>> free enough -- >>> >> >> Well I don't want your "free" market then... >> > > Nor am I trying to convince you to join. I deeply respect your freedom to > do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't interfere with mine to do the > same. And vice-versa, of course. > > Cheers, > Telmo. > > >> >> Regards, >> Quentin >> >> >>> nobody can prevent you from selling or buying there, not even the mafias. >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> which was prohibited and owner by mafias market... Are you implying >>>>>> you can *ḧere and now* sell cocaine and heroine without resorting with >>>>>> the >>>>>> various mafias ? That's what you're saying ? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> How the hell do you suppose dealers had drugs in the first >>>>>>>>>>>> place ? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm not an expert by any means, but I can speculate. >>>>>>>>>>> Some drugs like cocaine or heroin require plants that can only >>>>>>>>>>> be grown in specific geographic regions, so it's likely that mafias >>>>>>>>>>> control >>>>>>>>>>> those supply chains. But other drugs can be grown in people's >>>>>>>>>>> houses, >>>>>>>>>>> synthesised by amateur chemists, legally bought with a prescription, >>>>>>>>>>> geo-arbitrated (drug laws vary a lot across the world) etc etc. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yeah, yeah, silk road was provided with drug with chemist >>>>>>>>>> apprentice in their garage... you got better joke ? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It's ok that you don't know certain things, my knowledge has >>>>>>>>> gigantic gaps too. What I don't understand is why you embarrass >>>>>>>>> yourself >>>>>>>>> without at least googling a bit. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.google.com/search?q=amphetamine+lab+arrests >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yeah and so these lab are not done under mafias controls ? you're >>>>>>>> joking surely... it's well known dealers make their own canabis and >>>>>>>> amphetamine in their garage and don't respond to anyone else except >>>>>>>> themselves, the ndrangheta does not exists, it's a chimera. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Also you use a bully strategy by picking little things I say and >>>>>>>>> trying to make them sound silly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Right. Maybe Quentin had too many discussion with... oh, never mind. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not bullying anyone, I don't buy something that present silk road >>>>>> as a free market without any evidence of it, and just saying mafia is >>>>>> something inexistent. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On the other side of the street from my home there is a large >>>>>>>>> store purely dedicated to selling equipment to grow cannabis. In >>>>>>>>> countries >>>>>>>>> like Mexico, pharmacies will sell you almost anything. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Either you've got infinite bad faith here, or you so naive that >>>>>>>>>>>> it can't be so... so I'm left with bad faith here. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I may be wrong, but I don't think it's fair to assume bad faith >>>>>>>>>>> on my part. I don't think I've made any unreasonable statement. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's unreasonable to say silk road was a free market.. it was a >>>>>>>>>> controlled mafia market that's all, and if that is an example of free >>>>>>>>>> market... then I don't want to be in ! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You provide no evidence or arguments for this. You just keep >>>>>>>>> repeating it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You provide absolutely nil evidence, that silk road was a free >>>>>>>> market not under the influence of the mafias at the base level of the >>>>>>>> products that were available on it.. please do. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Law enforcement has indicated over and over in the press how they >>>>>>> had to develop new strategies for Silk Road phenomenon. This implies >>>>>>> somewhere that traditional police work has to change to combat as it is >>>>>>> "not usual methods" as title implies: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-03/fbi-snags-silk-road-boss-with-own-methods.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You keep going on tangents when you don't like the outcome of >>>>>>>>>>> the debate. We started discussing Silk Road as an example of how a >>>>>>>>>>> free >>>>>>>>>>> market works without force. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Silk road *wasn't* a free market. So, it seems you don't like the >>>>>>>>>> obvious fact, not me who don't like the outcome of a debate. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Do you have any argument to support your assertion that silk road >>>>>>>>> was not a free market? Or should I just take your word for it? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have the first argument that nearly 100% of the market of >>>>>>>> cocaine/heroine/amphetamine is controlled under various mafias... the >>>>>>>> ndrangheta is know to control 80% of the market trade of cocaine in >>>>>>>> europe... any dealers who was selling that type of drugs could not have >>>>>>>> done so without mafias oversight... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You condemned Cannabis as horrible drug, >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> What ? I've never done that... I am a ext user of such drug... I'm in >>>>>> favor of legalizing it... what I'm not in favor of, is saying there is >>>>>> absolutely no danger, and that it is *good*... it's not, and certainly >>>>>> not >>>>>> the way it is most used in the western world (in an abusive manner). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> plus so-called "hard" substances are widely being sold via >>>>>>> prescription; strong opiates like fentanyl for various conditions, >>>>>>> operations, and weapons... ritalin, and amphetamine for ADHD etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> if you had stole them their market like you said it was, they would >>>>>>>> have get back at you and take you the market by the only way it has >>>>>>>> ever >>>>>>>> been done, by forcing you... they are not day dreamer, you piss them >>>>>>>> off, >>>>>>>> they kill you, as simple as that... you can dream all you want, that's >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> bare world we live in. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, I don't read stories of Mafia killing patients or attacking >>>>>>> hospitals using opiates routinely, even though hospitals and illegal >>>>>>> pharma >>>>>>> are competing with heroin sale. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> So the market of cocaine and heroine is not owned by the mafias ? >>>>>> That's what you're saying ? So I see absolutely no reason to legalize it, >>>>>> as you imply it is already a sane market... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sensational, but rather simplistic. If this satisfies you, fine. I >>>>>>> don't consider most of your statements to be based on credible facts in >>>>>>> this area. Especially the "evil of cannabis" tone you struck. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I've never used such a tone, you either make a mistake or >>>>>> misunderstood what I say... But that's true I'll never say, cannabis is >>>>>> OK >>>>>> there is absolutely no danger and no problem... that's false... but if >>>>>> you >>>>>> want to believe, I've no problem... but I'll tell you that it's not >>>>>> because >>>>>> you can manage your consomation of cannabis that anybody can and that >>>>>> most >>>>>> user can... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> hose arguments have been clearly debunked, even on this list. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> As I've never made such statement... what I made (and they are >>>>>> backed) is that cannabis is linked with depression and can enhance it and >>>>>> various studies back it up. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://scholar.google.be/scholar?q=cannabis+and+depression&hl=fr&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=oumzVNfvHYnwUILpgZgF&ved=0CBwQgQMwAA >>>>>> >>>>>> But if you don't want to believe it... fine. What I say is that I'm >>>>>> relieve to be an ex canabis addict, and that over usage didn't help me at >>>>>> all and certainly if not the cause did enhance the problem... do what you >>>>>> want with that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Quentin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Open problem of accessibility of reliable statistics to base our >>>>>>> assertions on are hard to come by because of prohibition. Especially on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> accounting and liquidity fronts of global illegal/legal poison >>>>>>> distribution. This seems more than black and white, especially this >>>>>>> type of >>>>>>> program: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Such program and scandals exist since decades and are not really >>>>>>> statistically accessible or transparent. You could be more accurate with >>>>>>> references and why you think it makes prohibition + effects transparent, >>>>>>> which mostly only Telmo has been providing. PGC >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>> . >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
