2015-01-12 18:01 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: > > > Ok, I think we ended up deviating from the reason why I introduced the > silk road theme. > > You argued that free markets are not possible, that force is necessary to > prevent unethical agents from destroying the market. Alberto did to. >
You did not provide proof that it is possible and stable and no powerful agent would in fine control it. > > I presented silk road as a counter-example. Due to its circumstances, the > identity of its participants was unknown. It was unknown to governments and > mafias (until the FBI finally figured out a way to crack this anonymity). > > There was not way to use force on silk road. Mafias could not prevent you > from selling drugs there by physical violence, > But mafias *used* it... the drug sold on silk road was not from a free market in the first place, it cannot be rendered free after... > because they had no way of discovering your identity. > > Still, silk road did not collapse under unethical sellers receiving > payment for cannabis and sending packs of dried lawn grass instead. Why? > Because the reputation system was enough. > If you convince of that... > > That was the point. It has nothing to do with the origin of the drugs > It does, because if the origin is a controlled non-free market, the enduser market cannot be a free market... do you deny this ? > or on weather they are bad or good for you. > I don't care also, and this is not part of the argument... also I find it odd to call me a prohibitionist when I explitely says I'm against prohibition... but it's not because of that that everything is good and canabis could be sold like chocolate bar in a supermarket. > These things are irrelevant to the argument I was making. > Still I didn't see how silkroad which was an illegal "market", with product coming for the large part from illegal controlled market, could be free at all ! > > > >> which was prohibited and owner by mafias market... Are you implying you >> can *ḧere and now* sell cocaine and heroine without resorting with the >> various mafias ? That's what you're saying ? >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How the hell do you suppose dealers had drugs in the first place ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not an expert by any means, but I can speculate. >>>>>>> Some drugs like cocaine or heroin require plants that can only be >>>>>>> grown in specific geographic regions, so it's likely that mafias control >>>>>>> those supply chains. But other drugs can be grown in people's houses, >>>>>>> synthesised by amateur chemists, legally bought with a prescription, >>>>>>> geo-arbitrated (drug laws vary a lot across the world) etc etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Yeah, yeah, silk road was provided with drug with chemist apprentice >>>>>> in their garage... you got better joke ? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It's ok that you don't know certain things, my knowledge has gigantic >>>>> gaps too. What I don't understand is why you embarrass yourself without at >>>>> least googling a bit. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.google.com/search?q=amphetamine+lab+arrests >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Yeah and so these lab are not done under mafias controls ? you're >>>> joking surely... it's well known dealers make their own canabis and >>>> amphetamine in their garage and don't respond to anyone else except >>>> themselves, the ndrangheta does not exists, it's a chimera. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Also you use a bully strategy by picking little things I say and >>>>> trying to make them sound silly. >>>>> >>>> >>> Right. Maybe Quentin had too many discussion with... oh, never mind. >>> >> >> I'm not bullying anyone, I don't buy something that present silk road as >> a free market without any evidence of it, and just saying mafia is >> something inexistent. >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> On the other side of the street from my home there is a large store >>>>> purely dedicated to selling equipment to grow cannabis. In countries like >>>>> Mexico, pharmacies will sell you almost anything. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Either you've got infinite bad faith here, or you so naive that it >>>>>>>> can't be so... so I'm left with bad faith here. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I may be wrong, but I don't think it's fair to assume bad faith on >>>>>>> my part. I don't think I've made any unreasonable statement. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It's unreasonable to say silk road was a free market.. it was a >>>>>> controlled mafia market that's all, and if that is an example of free >>>>>> market... then I don't want to be in ! >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You provide no evidence or arguments for this. You just keep repeating >>>>> it. >>>>> >>>> >>>> You provide absolutely nil evidence, that silk road was a free market >>>> not under the influence of the mafias at the base level of the products >>>> that were available on it.. please do. >>>> >>> >>> Law enforcement has indicated over and over in the press how they had to >>> develop new strategies for Silk Road phenomenon. This implies somewhere >>> that traditional police work has to change to combat as it is "not usual >>> methods" as title implies: >>> >>> >>> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-03/fbi-snags-silk-road-boss-with-own-methods.html >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You keep going on tangents when you don't like the outcome of the >>>>>>> debate. We started discussing Silk Road as an example of how a free >>>>>>> market >>>>>>> works without force. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Silk road *wasn't* a free market. So, it seems you don't like the >>>>>> obvious fact, not me who don't like the outcome of a debate. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Do you have any argument to support your assertion that silk road was >>>>> not a free market? Or should I just take your word for it? >>>>> >>>> >>>> I have the first argument that nearly 100% of the market of >>>> cocaine/heroine/amphetamine is controlled under various mafias... the >>>> ndrangheta is know to control 80% of the market trade of cocaine in >>>> europe... any dealers who was selling that type of drugs could not have >>>> done so without mafias oversight... >>>> >>> >>> You condemned Cannabis as horrible drug, >>> >> >> What ? I've never done that... I am a ext user of such drug... I'm in >> favor of legalizing it... what I'm not in favor of, is saying there is >> absolutely no danger, and that it is *good*... it's not, and certainly not >> the way it is most used in the western world (in an abusive manner). >> >> >>> plus so-called "hard" substances are widely being sold via prescription; >>> strong opiates like fentanyl for various conditions, operations, and >>> weapons... ritalin, and amphetamine for ADHD etc. >>> >>> >>>> if you had stole them their market like you said it was, they would >>>> have get back at you and take you the market by the only way it has ever >>>> been done, by forcing you... they are not day dreamer, you piss them off, >>>> they kill you, as simple as that... you can dream all you want, that's the >>>> bare world we live in. >>>> >>> >>> No, I don't read stories of Mafia killing patients or attacking >>> hospitals using opiates routinely, even though hospitals and illegal pharma >>> are competing with heroin sale. >>> >> >> So the market of cocaine and heroine is not owned by the mafias ? That's >> what you're saying ? So I see absolutely no reason to legalize it, as you >> imply it is already a sane market... >> >> >>> >>> Sensational, but rather simplistic. If this satisfies you, fine. I don't >>> consider most of your statements to be based on credible facts in this >>> area. Especially the "evil of cannabis" tone you struck. >>> >> >> I've never used such a tone, you either make a mistake or misunderstood >> what I say... But that's true I'll never say, cannabis is OK there is >> absolutely no danger and no problem... that's false... but if you want to >> believe, I've no problem... but I'll tell you that it's not because you can >> manage your consomation of cannabis that anybody can and that most user >> can... >> >> >>> hose arguments have been clearly debunked, even on this list. >>> >> >> As I've never made such statement... what I made (and they are backed) is >> that cannabis is linked with depression and can enhance it and various >> studies back it up. >> >> >> http://scholar.google.be/scholar?q=cannabis+and+depression&hl=fr&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=oumzVNfvHYnwUILpgZgF&ved=0CBwQgQMwAA >> >> But if you don't want to believe it... fine. What I say is that I'm >> relieve to be an ex canabis addict, and that over usage didn't help me at >> all and certainly if not the cause did enhance the problem... do what you >> want with that. >> >> Quentin >> >> >> >>> Open problem of accessibility of reliable statistics to base our >>> assertions on are hard to come by because of prohibition. Especially on the >>> accounting and liquidity fronts of global illegal/legal poison >>> distribution. This seems more than black and white, especially this type of >>> program: >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal >>> >>> Such program and scandals exist since decades and are not really >>> statistically accessible or transparent. You could be more accurate with >>> references and why you think it makes prohibition + effects transparent, >>> which mostly only Telmo has been providing. PGC >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. 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