On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 7:28 AM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well we will never agree, you've decided it was free so you conclude it > was. > Free for the purpose of our discussion: free enough so that sellers can use deceptive practices without consequence, but they mostly don't, which is the empirical point being made. Otherwise we live in a non-free world, and that is going to interface with any attempt like silk road. But then the objection becomes circular: free markets would never work because there is no free market. > You've asked how someone could control a decentralized anonymous market. I > did tell you how which you did conflate with government intervention where > I only said you just had to control the material supply chain, nowhere did > I said anything about government. > Yes you did, because the reason cartels control certain supply chains is prohibition. In a free market *maybe* the same individual self-interest that leads most sellers not to cheat on customers would lead honest traders to outnumber cartels, because there would be more profit to be made in playing fair. > The thing is your free from anything except coercion market you like is > bound to be subverted because we don't live in a care bear world.... proof > is silkroad is closed. > But it's not really. A number of functional clones already spawned. > Don't tell me it is the fault of government... thing is it is closed. > Well but the first one was objectively closed by the government, was it not? What we've seen so far: the government creates a very hostile environment but free trade is such a powerful idea that it still survives in one form or another. Cheers Telmo. > Regards > Le 14 janv. 2015 01:00, "Telmo Menezes" <[email protected]> a écrit : > > >> >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2015-01-13 16:24 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 6:14 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2015-01-12 18:01 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ok, I think we ended up deviating from the reason why I introduced >>>>>> the silk road theme. >>>>>> >>>>>> You argued that free markets are not possible, that force is >>>>>> necessary to prevent unethical agents from destroying the market. Alberto >>>>>> did to. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You did not provide proof that it is possible and stable and no >>>>> powerful agent would in fine control it. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I don't see how I could prove such a thing -- or how anyone could >>>> proves such a thing about any system. >>>> What I offer is empirical evidence: yes it's possible. It existed and >>>> it exists again today. It's been stable for some years, even against a very >>>> hostile environment. >>>> >>>> Could a powerful agent gain control of a decentralised, global and >>>> anonymous market? I don't see how. Can you suggest a strategy? >>>> >>> >>> By being the only one able to provide the products... as it is the case >>> with drugs such as cocaine and heroine... in the end you sell material >>> goods who are not decentralised. >>> >> >> So you're saying that a free market won't work because government >> intervention can kill it? >> The mafias are the only ones capable of providing some products because >> of prohibition, not because of the free market. >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I presented silk road as a counter-example. Due to its circumstances, >>>>>> the identity of its participants was unknown. It was unknown to >>>>>> governments >>>>>> and mafias (until the FBI finally figured out a way to crack this >>>>>> anonymity). >>>>>> >>>>>> There was not way to use force on silk road. Mafias could not prevent >>>>>> you from selling drugs there by physical violence, >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But mafias *used* it... the drug sold on silk road was not from a free >>>>> market in the first place, it cannot be rendered free after... >>>>> >>>> >>>> You're using the term "free" as if it were some mystical property like >>>> "kosher" or "halal". A free market is simply free from regulation from a >>>> central authority, that's all. >>>> >>> >>> Then any illegal market is free... that's nonsensical. >>> >> >> I said that an illegal market could be a free market, not that an illegal >> market implies a free market. >> >> >>> Free means everyone has access to it and the same information >>> available... that's barely the case with silkroad where only illegal goods >>> mainly provided by markets controlled by mafia where available... >>> >>> >>>> The silk road is free from regulation. >>>> >>> >>> Any illegal market is free from regulation.. as they are illegal. >>> >> >> Many illegal market are controlled by illegal central authorities. >> >> >>> >>> >>>> Anyone can participate, including mafias. If mafias couldn't >>>> participate, it wouldn't be a free market. >>>> >>> >>> Well I don't want a free market then... >>> >> >> You should be free not to participate. >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> because they had no way of discovering your identity. >>>>>> >>>>>> Still, silk road did not collapse under unethical sellers receiving >>>>>> payment for cannabis and sending packs of dried lawn grass instead. Why? >>>>>> Because the reputation system was enough. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If you convince of that... >>>>> >>>> >>>> Do you have any evidence to the contrary? How do you explain the >>>> enormous wealth that the creator of the market had amassed in commissions >>>> when he was arrested? >>>> >>> >>> Because every he got a tax on every illegal transactions, like a pimp... >>> >> >> He provides an essential service that enables the market and charges a >> fee for it. He does not have the power to tax. If his fees become >> unreasonable, a competitor will takes his place. This is a crucial point >> that distinguishes his actions from taxation. >> >> The pimp is like the drug cartel: a side-effect of government >> interference in private transactions. >> >> >>> >>> >>>> Surely the thing would collapse quickly if people were being ripped off? >>>> >>> >>> Surely people who wanted to bough anonymously drugs while where they >>> were it was difficult were happy sure... you can't go to the hypermart next >>> door to buy cocaine... so what ? >>> >> >> So bad behaviour is prevented solely individual self-interest. This is >> the entire reason why I brought this topic, to provide a counter-example to >> something you and Alberto claim to be impossible. >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> That was the point. It has nothing to do with the origin of the drugs >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It does, because if the origin is a controlled non-free market, the >>>>> enduser market cannot be a free market... do you deny this ? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Only if the participants in the upstream market are prevented from >>>> sourcing their wares elsewhere. >>>> >>> >>> Could you give me an adress where cocaine and heroine are harvested and >>> transformed in a free environment and where I can buy it being sure all the >>> chain was free from coercion ? >>> >> >> This restriction is imposed on some of the products by the government. >> The other products are also traded without the market collapsing under >> mis-behaviour. >> >> The fact that a couple of specific drugs have monopolistic suppliers >> because of the government does not invalidate my argument. It just >> distracts from the central point, that you refuse to face. >> >> >>> >>> >>>> This is not the case with silk road. Even if it's impractical to escape >>>> the mafias with things like cocaine and heroin, there are many other >>>> classes of drugs that can and are trivially produced and sold on silk road. >>>> >>> >>> So you have proof those drugs where being manufactured free from any >>> coercion ? do you ? >>> >> >> It's impossible to have such a proof due to the nature of the market, >> that provides string anonymity. I know there's a shop in front of my house >> that sells industrial sizes cannabis growing equipment. They have been >> there for years, so I assume they have clients. >> >> >>> >>> >>>> We've been through this, you just refute it with arguments from >>>> authority. >>>> >>> >>> I don't, you claim something extraordinary, you have to give evidence of >>> your claim. >>> >> >> I did. People could send tea leaves instead of cannabis on silk road with >> no consequences. They mostly didn't, because repeated business is more >> valuable. This is an easily verifiable fact if you can use google. It is >> irrelevant to the relevance of this empirical evidence if the wholesaler of >> the goods is a clan of evil alien lizards. >> >> >>> >>> >>>> Yet it is trivially true. A lot of people admit to growing cannabis in >>>> their homes, for example, and it is now legal in several parts of the >>>> world. >>>> >>> >>> A lot of people grow cannabis for their personal use, not a lot of >>> people at all are dealer of cannabis... and all the dealers I've ever >>> approached to buy cannabis, where not growing it themselves... >>> >> >> Cannabis can be grown easily and anywhere. It just doesn't seem to make >> economical sense that it would be a viable target for a cartel to control. >> How could it prevent smaller local operations from existing? There is no >> bottleneck for them to be the gatekeepers. >> >> >>> >>> Only where cannabis is *legalized* such thing could be true and verified >>> it was free from coercion... any illegal market is bound to be controlled >>> at least with how the products are available to it... >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> or on weather they are bad or good for you. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don't care also, and this is not part of the argument... also I find >>>>> it odd to call me a prohibitionist when I explitely says I'm against >>>>> prohibition... but it's not because of that that everything is good and >>>>> canabis could be sold like chocolate bar in a supermarket. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I did not call you a prohibitionist, nor did I attack or defend the >>>> merits of cannabis or any other drug. I entered this discussion purely to >>>> give an example on how reputation-based markets can replace force. >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> These things are irrelevant to the argument I was making. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Still I didn't see how silkroad which was an illegal "market", with >>>>> product coming for the large part from illegal controlled market, could be >>>>> free at all ! >>>>> >>>> >>>> It depends on what you mean by free. For the purpose of my argument >>>> it's free enough -- >>>> >>> >>> Well I don't want your "free" market then... >>> >> >> Nor am I trying to convince you to join. I deeply respect your freedom to >> do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't interfere with mine to do the >> same. And vice-versa, of course. >> >> Cheers, >> Telmo. >> >> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Quentin >>> >>> >>>> nobody can prevent you from selling or buying there, not even the >>>> mafias. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> which was prohibited and owner by mafias market... Are you implying >>>>>>> you can *ḧere and now* sell cocaine and heroine without resorting with >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> various mafias ? That's what you're saying ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> How the hell do you suppose dealers had drugs in the first >>>>>>>>>>>>> place ? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not an expert by any means, but I can speculate. >>>>>>>>>>>> Some drugs like cocaine or heroin require plants that can only >>>>>>>>>>>> be grown in specific geographic regions, so it's likely that >>>>>>>>>>>> mafias control >>>>>>>>>>>> those supply chains. But other drugs can be grown in people's >>>>>>>>>>>> houses, >>>>>>>>>>>> synthesised by amateur chemists, legally bought with a >>>>>>>>>>>> prescription, >>>>>>>>>>>> geo-arbitrated (drug laws vary a lot across the world) etc etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, yeah, silk road was provided with drug with chemist >>>>>>>>>>> apprentice in their garage... you got better joke ? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's ok that you don't know certain things, my knowledge has >>>>>>>>>> gigantic gaps too. What I don't understand is why you embarrass >>>>>>>>>> yourself >>>>>>>>>> without at least googling a bit. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.google.com/search?q=amphetamine+lab+arrests >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yeah and so these lab are not done under mafias controls ? you're >>>>>>>>> joking surely... it's well known dealers make their own canabis and >>>>>>>>> amphetamine in their garage and don't respond to anyone else except >>>>>>>>> themselves, the ndrangheta does not exists, it's a chimera. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Also you use a bully strategy by picking little things I say and >>>>>>>>>> trying to make them sound silly. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Right. Maybe Quentin had too many discussion with... oh, never mind. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not bullying anyone, I don't buy something that present silk >>>>>>> road as a free market without any evidence of it, and just saying mafia >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> something inexistent. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On the other side of the street from my home there is a large >>>>>>>>>> store purely dedicated to selling equipment to grow cannabis. In >>>>>>>>>> countries >>>>>>>>>> like Mexico, pharmacies will sell you almost anything. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Either you've got infinite bad faith here, or you so naive >>>>>>>>>>>>> that it can't be so... so I'm left with bad faith here. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I may be wrong, but I don't think it's fair to assume bad >>>>>>>>>>>> faith on my part. I don't think I've made any unreasonable >>>>>>>>>>>> statement. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It's unreasonable to say silk road was a free market.. it was a >>>>>>>>>>> controlled mafia market that's all, and if that is an example of >>>>>>>>>>> free >>>>>>>>>>> market... then I don't want to be in ! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You provide no evidence or arguments for this. You just keep >>>>>>>>>> repeating it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You provide absolutely nil evidence, that silk road was a free >>>>>>>>> market not under the influence of the mafias at the base level of the >>>>>>>>> products that were available on it.. please do. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Law enforcement has indicated over and over in the press how they >>>>>>>> had to develop new strategies for Silk Road phenomenon. This implies >>>>>>>> somewhere that traditional police work has to change to combat as it is >>>>>>>> "not usual methods" as title implies: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-03/fbi-snags-silk-road-boss-with-own-methods.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You keep going on tangents when you don't like the outcome of >>>>>>>>>>>> the debate. We started discussing Silk Road as an example of how a >>>>>>>>>>>> free >>>>>>>>>>>> market works without force. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Silk road *wasn't* a free market. So, it seems you don't like >>>>>>>>>>> the obvious fact, not me who don't like the outcome of a debate. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Do you have any argument to support your assertion that silk road >>>>>>>>>> was not a free market? Or should I just take your word for it? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have the first argument that nearly 100% of the market of >>>>>>>>> cocaine/heroine/amphetamine is controlled under various mafias... the >>>>>>>>> ndrangheta is know to control 80% of the market trade of cocaine in >>>>>>>>> europe... any dealers who was selling that type of drugs could not >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> done so without mafias oversight... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You condemned Cannabis as horrible drug, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What ? I've never done that... I am a ext user of such drug... I'm >>>>>>> in favor of legalizing it... what I'm not in favor of, is saying there >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> absolutely no danger, and that it is *good*... it's not, and certainly >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> the way it is most used in the western world (in an abusive manner). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> plus so-called "hard" substances are widely being sold via >>>>>>>> prescription; strong opiates like fentanyl for various conditions, >>>>>>>> operations, and weapons... ritalin, and amphetamine for ADHD etc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> if you had stole them their market like you said it was, they >>>>>>>>> would have get back at you and take you the market by the only way it >>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>> ever been done, by forcing you... they are not day dreamer, you piss >>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>> off, they kill you, as simple as that... you can dream all you want, >>>>>>>>> that's >>>>>>>>> the bare world we live in. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No, I don't read stories of Mafia killing patients or attacking >>>>>>>> hospitals using opiates routinely, even though hospitals and illegal >>>>>>>> pharma >>>>>>>> are competing with heroin sale. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So the market of cocaine and heroine is not owned by the mafias ? >>>>>>> That's what you're saying ? So I see absolutely no reason to legalize >>>>>>> it, >>>>>>> as you imply it is already a sane market... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sensational, but rather simplistic. If this satisfies you, fine. I >>>>>>>> don't consider most of your statements to be based on credible facts in >>>>>>>> this area. Especially the "evil of cannabis" tone you struck. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've never used such a tone, you either make a mistake or >>>>>>> misunderstood what I say... But that's true I'll never say, cannabis is >>>>>>> OK >>>>>>> there is absolutely no danger and no problem... that's false... but if >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> want to believe, I've no problem... but I'll tell you that it's not >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> you can manage your consomation of cannabis that anybody can and that >>>>>>> most >>>>>>> user can... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose arguments have been clearly debunked, even on this list. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I've never made such statement... what I made (and they are >>>>>>> backed) is that cannabis is linked with depression and can enhance it >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> various studies back it up. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://scholar.google.be/scholar?q=cannabis+and+depression&hl=fr&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=oumzVNfvHYnwUILpgZgF&ved=0CBwQgQMwAA >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But if you don't want to believe it... fine. What I say is that I'm >>>>>>> relieve to be an ex canabis addict, and that over usage didn't help me >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> all and certainly if not the cause did enhance the problem... do what >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> want with that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Quentin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Open problem of accessibility of reliable statistics to base our >>>>>>>> assertions on are hard to come by because of prohibition. Especially >>>>>>>> on the >>>>>>>> accounting and liquidity fronts of global illegal/legal poison >>>>>>>> distribution. This seems more than black and white, especially this >>>>>>>> type of >>>>>>>> program: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Such program and scandals exist since decades and are not really >>>>>>>> statistically accessible or transparent. You could be more accurate >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> references and why you think it makes prohibition + effects >>>>>>>> transparent, >>>>>>>> which mostly only Telmo has been providing. PGC >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>>>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>> . >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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