2015-01-13 16:24 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: > > > On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 6:14 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> >> >> 2015-01-12 18:01 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: >> >>> >>> >>> Ok, I think we ended up deviating from the reason why I introduced the >>> silk road theme. >>> >>> You argued that free markets are not possible, that force is necessary >>> to prevent unethical agents from destroying the market. Alberto did to. >>> >> >> You did not provide proof that it is possible and stable and no powerful >> agent would in fine control it. >> > > I don't see how I could prove such a thing -- or how anyone could proves > such a thing about any system. > What I offer is empirical evidence: yes it's possible. It existed and it > exists again today. It's been stable for some years, even against a very > hostile environment. > > Could a powerful agent gain control of a decentralised, global and > anonymous market? I don't see how. Can you suggest a strategy? >
By being the only one able to provide the products... as it is the case with drugs such as cocaine and heroine... in the end you sell material goods who are not decentralised. > > >> >> >>> >>> I presented silk road as a counter-example. Due to its circumstances, >>> the identity of its participants was unknown. It was unknown to governments >>> and mafias (until the FBI finally figured out a way to crack this >>> anonymity). >>> >>> There was not way to use force on silk road. Mafias could not prevent >>> you from selling drugs there by physical violence, >>> >> >> But mafias *used* it... the drug sold on silk road was not from a free >> market in the first place, it cannot be rendered free after... >> > > You're using the term "free" as if it were some mystical property like > "kosher" or "halal". A free market is simply free from regulation from a > central authority, that's all. > Then any illegal market is free... that's nonsensical. Free means everyone has access to it and the same information available... that's barely the case with silkroad where only illegal goods mainly provided by markets controlled by mafia where available... > The silk road is free from regulation. > Any illegal market is free from regulation.. as they are illegal. > Anyone can participate, including mafias. If mafias couldn't participate, > it wouldn't be a free market. > Well I don't want a free market then... > > >> >> >>> because they had no way of discovering your identity. >>> >>> Still, silk road did not collapse under unethical sellers receiving >>> payment for cannabis and sending packs of dried lawn grass instead. Why? >>> Because the reputation system was enough. >>> >> >> If you convince of that... >> > > Do you have any evidence to the contrary? How do you explain the enormous > wealth that the creator of the market had amassed in commissions when he > was arrested? > Because every he got a tax on every illegal transactions, like a pimp... > Surely the thing would collapse quickly if people were being ripped off? > Surely people who wanted to bough anonymously drugs while where they were it was difficult were happy sure... you can't go to the hypermart next door to buy cocaine... so what ? > > >> >> >>> >>> That was the point. It has nothing to do with the origin of the drugs >>> >> >> It does, because if the origin is a controlled non-free market, the >> enduser market cannot be a free market... do you deny this ? >> > > Only if the participants in the upstream market are prevented from > sourcing their wares elsewhere. > Could you give me an adress where cocaine and heroine are harvested and transformed in a free environment and where I can buy it being sure all the chain was free from coercion ? > This is not the case with silk road. Even if it's impractical to escape > the mafias with things like cocaine and heroin, there are many other > classes of drugs that can and are trivially produced and sold on silk road. > So you have proof those drugs where being manufactured free from any coercion ? do you ? > We've been through this, you just refute it with arguments from authority. > I don't, you claim something extraordinary, you have to give evidence of your claim. > Yet it is trivially true. A lot of people admit to growing cannabis in > their homes, for example, and it is now legal in several parts of the world. > A lot of people grow cannabis for their personal use, not a lot of people at all are dealer of cannabis... and all the dealers I've ever approached to buy cannabis, where not growing it themselves... Only where cannabis is *legalized* such thing could be true and verified it was free from coercion... any illegal market is bound to be controlled at least with how the products are available to it... > > >> >> >>> or on weather they are bad or good for you. >>> >> >> I don't care also, and this is not part of the argument... also I find it >> odd to call me a prohibitionist when I explitely says I'm against >> prohibition... but it's not because of that that everything is good and >> canabis could be sold like chocolate bar in a supermarket. >> > > I did not call you a prohibitionist, nor did I attack or defend the merits > of cannabis or any other drug. I entered this discussion purely to give an > example on how reputation-based markets can replace force. > > > >> >> >>> These things are irrelevant to the argument I was making. >>> >> >> Still I didn't see how silkroad which was an illegal "market", with >> product coming for the large part from illegal controlled market, could be >> free at all ! >> > > It depends on what you mean by free. For the purpose of my argument it's > free enough -- > Well I don't want your "free" market then... Regards, Quentin > nobody can prevent you from selling or buying there, not even the mafias. > > >> >>> >>> >>>> which was prohibited and owner by mafias market... Are you implying you >>>> can *ḧere and now* sell cocaine and heroine without resorting with the >>>> various mafias ? That's what you're saying ? >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> How the hell do you suppose dealers had drugs in the first place ? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm not an expert by any means, but I can speculate. >>>>>>>>> Some drugs like cocaine or heroin require plants that can only be >>>>>>>>> grown in specific geographic regions, so it's likely that mafias >>>>>>>>> control >>>>>>>>> those supply chains. But other drugs can be grown in people's houses, >>>>>>>>> synthesised by amateur chemists, legally bought with a prescription, >>>>>>>>> geo-arbitrated (drug laws vary a lot across the world) etc etc. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yeah, yeah, silk road was provided with drug with chemist >>>>>>>> apprentice in their garage... you got better joke ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's ok that you don't know certain things, my knowledge has >>>>>>> gigantic gaps too. What I don't understand is why you embarrass yourself >>>>>>> without at least googling a bit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.google.com/search?q=amphetamine+lab+arrests >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Yeah and so these lab are not done under mafias controls ? you're >>>>>> joking surely... it's well known dealers make their own canabis and >>>>>> amphetamine in their garage and don't respond to anyone else except >>>>>> themselves, the ndrangheta does not exists, it's a chimera. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Also you use a bully strategy by picking little things I say and >>>>>>> trying to make them sound silly. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Right. Maybe Quentin had too many discussion with... oh, never mind. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not bullying anyone, I don't buy something that present silk road >>>> as a free market without any evidence of it, and just saying mafia is >>>> something inexistent. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On the other side of the street from my home there is a large store >>>>>>> purely dedicated to selling equipment to grow cannabis. In countries >>>>>>> like >>>>>>> Mexico, pharmacies will sell you almost anything. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Either you've got infinite bad faith here, or you so naive that >>>>>>>>>> it can't be so... so I'm left with bad faith here. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I may be wrong, but I don't think it's fair to assume bad faith >>>>>>>>> on my part. I don't think I've made any unreasonable statement. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's unreasonable to say silk road was a free market.. it was a >>>>>>>> controlled mafia market that's all, and if that is an example of free >>>>>>>> market... then I don't want to be in ! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You provide no evidence or arguments for this. You just keep >>>>>>> repeating it. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You provide absolutely nil evidence, that silk road was a free market >>>>>> not under the influence of the mafias at the base level of the products >>>>>> that were available on it.. please do. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Law enforcement has indicated over and over in the press how they had >>>>> to develop new strategies for Silk Road phenomenon. This implies somewhere >>>>> that traditional police work has to change to combat as it is "not usual >>>>> methods" as title implies: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-03/fbi-snags-silk-road-boss-with-own-methods.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You keep going on tangents when you don't like the outcome of the >>>>>>>>> debate. We started discussing Silk Road as an example of how a free >>>>>>>>> market >>>>>>>>> works without force. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Silk road *wasn't* a free market. So, it seems you don't like the >>>>>>>> obvious fact, not me who don't like the outcome of a debate. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you have any argument to support your assertion that silk road >>>>>>> was not a free market? Or should I just take your word for it? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have the first argument that nearly 100% of the market of >>>>>> cocaine/heroine/amphetamine is controlled under various mafias... the >>>>>> ndrangheta is know to control 80% of the market trade of cocaine in >>>>>> europe... any dealers who was selling that type of drugs could not have >>>>>> done so without mafias oversight... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You condemned Cannabis as horrible drug, >>>>> >>>> >>>> What ? I've never done that... I am a ext user of such drug... I'm in >>>> favor of legalizing it... what I'm not in favor of, is saying there is >>>> absolutely no danger, and that it is *good*... it's not, and certainly not >>>> the way it is most used in the western world (in an abusive manner). >>>> >>>> >>>>> plus so-called "hard" substances are widely being sold via >>>>> prescription; strong opiates like fentanyl for various conditions, >>>>> operations, and weapons... ritalin, and amphetamine for ADHD etc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> if you had stole them their market like you said it was, they would >>>>>> have get back at you and take you the market by the only way it has ever >>>>>> been done, by forcing you... they are not day dreamer, you piss them off, >>>>>> they kill you, as simple as that... you can dream all you want, that's >>>>>> the >>>>>> bare world we live in. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No, I don't read stories of Mafia killing patients or attacking >>>>> hospitals using opiates routinely, even though hospitals and illegal >>>>> pharma >>>>> are competing with heroin sale. >>>>> >>>> >>>> So the market of cocaine and heroine is not owned by the mafias ? >>>> That's what you're saying ? So I see absolutely no reason to legalize it, >>>> as you imply it is already a sane market... >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sensational, but rather simplistic. If this satisfies you, fine. I >>>>> don't consider most of your statements to be based on credible facts in >>>>> this area. Especially the "evil of cannabis" tone you struck. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I've never used such a tone, you either make a mistake or misunderstood >>>> what I say... But that's true I'll never say, cannabis is OK there is >>>> absolutely no danger and no problem... that's false... but if you want to >>>> believe, I've no problem... but I'll tell you that it's not because you can >>>> manage your consomation of cannabis that anybody can and that most user >>>> can... >>>> >>>> >>>>> hose arguments have been clearly debunked, even on this list. >>>>> >>>> >>>> As I've never made such statement... what I made (and they are backed) >>>> is that cannabis is linked with depression and can enhance it and various >>>> studies back it up. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://scholar.google.be/scholar?q=cannabis+and+depression&hl=fr&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=oumzVNfvHYnwUILpgZgF&ved=0CBwQgQMwAA >>>> >>>> But if you don't want to believe it... fine. What I say is that I'm >>>> relieve to be an ex canabis addict, and that over usage didn't help me at >>>> all and certainly if not the cause did enhance the problem... do what you >>>> want with that. >>>> >>>> Quentin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Open problem of accessibility of reliable statistics to base our >>>>> assertions on are hard to come by because of prohibition. Especially on >>>>> the >>>>> accounting and liquidity fronts of global illegal/legal poison >>>>> distribution. This seems more than black and white, especially this type >>>>> of >>>>> program: >>>>> >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal >>>>> >>>>> Such program and scandals exist since decades and are not really >>>>> statistically accessible or transparent. You could be more accurate with >>>>> references and why you think it makes prohibition + effects transparent, >>>>> which mostly only Telmo has been providing. PGC >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
