On Jan 29 2015 Samiya wrote: * " Why not define God as the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe and Everything Else that is or may exist?" *
Excellent proposal for a *DEFINING*. Now that carries a question: if you 'define God (Allah?) as the smartest and best Creator and Sustainer, why do you pretend to be "smarter" and tell us what God thinks, does and plans? If God is the best Sustained, why do you pray for changing His plans (whatever those may be)? If God is the 'Creator', why do we have miscreants like sinners, among us - creations? What about Satan? What about the origination of the Script? Just asking JohnM On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 5:37 AM, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 12:53 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > >> >> On 29 Jan 2015, at 11:12, Samiya Illias wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:13 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 14 Jan 2015, at 11:46, Samiya Illias wrote (to Chris): >>> >>> >>> Why not define God as the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe and >>> Everything Else that is or may exist? >>> >>> >>> Very good, and common, definition. It is in most of my theological >>> dictionaries. Note that the Universe is itself among the things which may, >>> or may not, exist. >>> >>> Glad you agree. Most people are okay with Creator but not okay with >> Sustainer... >> >> >> I think that without God, we get 0 = 1 in a second. >> >> I have more problem with creator. But don't mind. It is very technical. >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> The raison d'être of everything? >>> >>> OK. >>> >> >> :) >> >>> The unanswerable and unexplainable first reason? >>> >>> >>> This is saying more than needed, but I agree, and it follows from the >>> definition above if we assume computationalism. >>> >> >> Hmm.. >> >> >> Do you agree that God has either to submit to Truth, or to be Truth? >> > > Al-Haq is among the many names or attributes of God. Though generally > translated as The Truth, the word al-Haq encompasses a range of meanings, > and as contrasted to baatil [falsehood], the primary signification the word > ‘haq’ is suitableness to the requirements of wisdom, justice, right, or > rightness, truth, reality, or fact. The state, or quality, or property, of > being just, proper, right, correct, proper. Lane’s Lexicon covers around > six pages: http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/ > Al-Haq is merely one of the aspects of Allah (God) who is much more than > any word or concept that we can imagine or relate to. Another name of God > is Al-Khaliq (The Creator). This link has a list of names/attributes > mentioned in the Quran: > http://www.whyislam.org/god/names-and-attributes-of-allah/ > >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Who chooses to remain hidden but Whose presence cannot be denied? >>> >>> >>> OK. We might be able to explain why "he chooses to remain hidden", once >>> we agree on some definition and axioms. >>> >> >> My favourite text does contain some clues such as: >> 1. that God is the 'noor' [spiritual light?, radiation?, ??? >> http://quran.com/24/35 ] of the Heavens and Earth; >> 2. vision perceives Him not but He perceives all [http://quran.com/6/103 >> ]; >> 3. that when Moses asked to see God, he was told that if the mountain can >> bear to see God, then perhaps Moses might be able to see God [ >> http://quran.com/7/143 ]; >> >> >> OK. >> >> >> >> >> 4. it is not for any 'bashr' [mortal?] to communicate with God except by >> revelation >> >> >> But with computationalism, in the case of the sound machine, revelation >> are kept silent. >> > > Well, that’s a limit of computationalism’s sound machine. Perhaps > computationalism is only leading you towards a higher truth, but like all > things we can study, this is a also a ‘creation’, perhaps a primary > creation that you are able to theorise about, and not the Creator. > >> >> >> >> >> or from behind a veil or through a messenger [http://quran.com/42/51] >> >> >> >> Who will decide its authority? >> >> This is dangerous, the people with bad intention (stealing, controlling >> others) can use that idea. >> > > Will you also discourage the use of heat or electricity for domestic or > industrial use as some people may use it for harmful purposes; or the > consumption of food or medicine as it may be used in a poisonous way be > some people; … revelations are a precious need for us humans as they > provide the teleological rationale for our existence. > >> >> >> >> >> >> 5. and that God's command descends through the entire creation, and He >> has encompassed everything in His knowledge [http://quran.com/65/12 ] >> >> >> >> Well, a lot. Omniscience is self-contradictory. But take that remark as >> "academical", as "omniscience" makes sense for large domain, just not >> *everything*. >> >> >> >> >> >>> The question that nobody can begin to answer?! >>> >>> >>> I can agree, but to be honest, I am not always sure you do agree >>> yourself with this, due to some attachment you illustrate with literal >>> interpretation of some human text. >>> >> >> Some attachment? Great attachment!!! I am quite convinced that it not a >> human text, >> >> >> >> May be it is not a human text. But how can you be convinced on this? >> >> The Quran is a divine poem. Nothing in a poem should be taken literally. >> > > The Quran is not a poem. If we do not take a scripture or any piece of > writing literally, then we can interpret it in several ways, some of which > the author may not have intended. I think its far more dangerous and > detrimental to the purpose of the scripture to not to take it literally > than to take it literally. When you take it literally, you can have an > opinion of whether you do or do not agree with the author; however when you > do not take it literally, you first imagine what to interpret, and then > refute your own imagination, and then blame it on the author. > > >> >> If you take it literally, you do insult all other searchers, because you >> tell them, we are the one having had the genuine contact with the genuine >> God. >> >> I don't think so. > > >> I don't ask you to abandon your faith, but to doubt the literacy of its >> rendering. >> > > Then it would no longer be faith! > >> >> >> >> >> >> and the more I study it, the more fascinatingly convincing I find it to >> be [http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/ ] >> >> >> >> You can confirm most theories by selecting facts. It is not a valid >> procedure. >> > > Don't understand what you mean by it. If you are referring to something > about my blog, please do let me know. > >> >> >> >> >> And why nobody can answer? Simply because God is not like anything else [ >> http://quran.com/112/ ] >> >> >> >> If you want approach the truth, you need more training in the art of >> doubting. >> > >> You need to find a morphism (bridge) between your theory, and theories by >> others. Literalism makes that task impossible, and this is a reason why >> literal people get violent. They concentrate on the differences instead of >> looking to the important things they have in common. >> > > That is due to selective literalism, that you can do with any piece of > literature or code of law, and conveniently blame it on the author. > > Samiya > > >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >> Samiya >> >> >>> I agree those text does not give the answer, though, but it looks like >>> it answers them implicitly, in some way, which can be very misleading if >>> taken literally. It introduces the argument-per-authority (non valid) in >>> the discourse. We can see how some non-believers can exploit that, for >>> special interests. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Samiya >>> >>> Brent >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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