On 30 Mar 2015, at 23:05, LizR wrote:
On 31 March 2015 at 09:28, Stathis Papaioannou <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2015, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
On 30 Mar 2015, at 10:06, LizR wrote:
On 30 March 2015 at 19:26, Stathis Papaioannou <[email protected]>
wrote:
Fading qualia in the setting of normal behaviour, if logically
possible, would destroy the common idea of consciousness that we
have.
It would mean, for example, that you could have gone blind last week
but not realise it. You would look at a painting, describe the
painting, have an emotional response to the painting - but lack any
visual experience of the painting. If that is possible, what meaning
is left to attribute to the word "qualia"?
Well, it would mean that comp is false, because the electronic
replacements are not generating any conscious experience despite
having their I/O matched to the rest of the brain.
Yes, there would be p-zombies. Behaving like conscious person, but
without any private knowledge, qualia, sensation or consciousness.
And there would also be the possibility of partial p-zombies, which
would mean that private knowledge, qualia, sensation and
consciousness make no subjective difference, or equivalently that
they don't exist.
Yes, exactly, partial zombies. This is sounding like Daniel
Dennett's view, that consciousness etc don't "really" exist but are
a sort of illusion or "user interface" or like "elan vital", some
mysterious ineffable property that science will do away with once we
understand enough. I don't necessarily believe this, but I need more
than "an argument from incredulity" to convince me that it's wrong.
The doctor: Ah! Mister Dennett, I guess you don't need an anesthesia
for the operation, as consciousness and thus pain (the qualia which is
painful) are just an ineffable illusion.
Dennett: AAAAAAAAh...., please stop, I can't bear that...
The doctor: Ah! I see you are trying to trick me, ... like if you
would be conscious of anything, aren't you? But your book convinced me
that pain, well, that's all in your head.
Stathis gave a better explanation, but if I can conceive that anything
I see and measure, or reason about, might be an illusion, I can't
conceive that consciousness is an illusion, because to have a genuine
illusion you need a conscious person to be deluded. An unconscious
illusion does not make sense.
Bruno
The magician: and here is my favorite trick.
The public, but we saw nothing.
The magician: that is the trick, I made an elephant from nowhere, and
then I make the elephant *and* the illusion of the elephant
disappear. Few magicians can do that. I can even make disappear the
entire show, do you want to see?
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