On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> wrote:
> Telmo Menezes wrote: > >> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:22 AM, Bruce Kellett < >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 8:14 AM, Bruce Kellett >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected] >> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: >> >> meekerdb wrote: >> >> On 5/15/2015 10:29 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: >> >> >> The AI that I envisage will probably be based on a >> learning >> program of some sort, that will have to learn in >> much the >> same way as an infant human learns. I doubt that we >> will >> ever be able to create an AI that is essentially an >> intelligent adult human when it is first turned on. >> >> >> I agree with that, but once an AI is realized it will be >> possible to copy it. And if it's digital it will be >> possible to >> implement it using different hardware. If it's not >> digital, it >> will (in principle) be able to implement it arbitrarily >> closely >> with a digital device. And we will have the same >> question - >> what is that makes that hardware device conscious? I >> don't see >> any plausible answer except "Running the program it >> instantiates." >> >> >> But that does not imply that consciousness is itself a >> computation. >> There is not some subroutine in your AI the is labelled "this >> subroutine computes consciousness". Consciousness is a >> function of >> the whole functioning system, not of some particular >> feature. That >> is why I think identifying consciousness with computation is >> in fact >> adding some additional magic to the machine. >> >> >> So you don't believe that performing the same computations that >> your brain does in another substrate will produce a copy of your >> mind? If you don't believe that, then you must believe in some >> unknown property of matter (magic?). If you do, then you believe >> that consciousness supervenes on computation. Consciousness >> arose in nature by a process of natural evolution. >> >> How do you know that? >> Proto-consciousness gave some evolutionary advantage, so it >> grew and >> developed. >> >> How do you know that? >> Nature did not at some point add the fact that it was a >> computation, >> and then it suddenly become conscious. >> Of course not. Nobody claims that. >> Consciousness is a computation only in the trivial sense >> that any >> physical process can be regarded as a computation, or >> mapping taking >> some input to some output. There is not some special, >> magical class >> of computations that are unique to consciousness. >> Consciousness is >> an evolved bulk property, not just one specific feature of >> that bulk. >> >> How do you know it's evolved? >> >> >> Are you seriously going to argue that homo sapiens did *not* arise >> by a process of natural selection, aka evolution? >> >> >> No, Darwinian evolution is my favourite scientific theory. >> >> What I am arguing is that we don't know if consciousness is an evolved >> trait. It is perfectly possible to imagine darwinian evolution working >> without consciousness, even to the human intelligence level (producing >> philosophical zombies). >> >> For example, if consciousness is more fundamental than matter, then >> evolution is something that happens within consciousness, not a generator >> of it. >> > > That is probably the strongest argument against computationalism to date. How so? Telmo. > > > Bruce > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
