On 06 Aug 2015, at 19:23, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 5:13 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
>>> the nuance is not in the name or in the pronouns, but in
the 1p/3p difference, or in the 1-1p/3-1p difference.
>> In a world with people duplicating machines what
exactly is the difference betweenTHE1p and the 3p
difference and the difference between THE 1-1p
and the 3-1p difference? And whose "1p" is it anyway?
> It is the difference between what is written in a diary of a
person, and what an outsider can describe
If after the duplication Bruno Marchal can point to the one and
only person that unambiguously wrote all that stuff in that diary
then it will have been proven that there really is such a thing as
*THE* 1P, if not then Bruno Marchal is talking gibberish.
>> Expects? That depends entirely on who the Helsinki guy
is, as interminable posts on this subject have conclusively shown
John Clark and Bruno Marchal expect very different things.
> But we do agree on who the guy is. He is the guy who remember
Helsinki.
But today is thursday so we don't agree.
Lie.
>> But why is this even relevant?
> You would read step 4, 5, ... you would have a pretty clear
idea why it is relevant
If step 4 is built on the foundations of step 3 then it would
be pointless to read step 4 until the blunders in step 3 are
repaired, and if it is not built on those foundations then it was
unnecessary and foolish to include step 3 at all in your "proof".
Lol.
>> The Helsinki guy will have whatever future subjective
experience he has
> The point is that there are more than one which is available.
So you agree the Helsinki guy will have a future subjective
experience of Moscow and you agree the Helsinki guy will
have a future subjective experience of Washington
Yes, in the 3p view.
but insist the Helsinki guy will not experience Moscow and
Washington in the future.
Yes, in the 1p view.
Are you sure you're a logician?
Yes, you do just for the bilionth time the 1p-3p confusion.
> and his expectations, correct or incorrect, have absolutely
positively NOTHING to do with it.
?
Which word didn't you understand?
I have no clue to what "it" is referring.
>>> we have agreed on: both the M and W men are
the same person as the H-man
>> Yes the Moscow man and the Washington man are the
Helsinki man, but it's important to remember that the
Washington man is NOT the Moscow man; and that's why personal
identity can only be traced from the past to the present, never
from the present to the future.
> Your own copies in W and M refute this immediately.
Bullshit. W says I remember seeing Washington one minute ago,
and M says I remember seeing Moscow one minute ago, so W is NOT M .
Correct.
But both W and M say I remember seeing Helsinki one hour ago so both
W and M are H.
Correct.
But you don't give any clue explaining why this prevents any of the
copies to refute that we can predict what will happen in the future.
> Until a city was spotted John Clark would know that
John Clark had NOT been duplicated, although John Clark's body may
or may not have been.
> So you say that at a time he might know what happened. Pure
nonsense.
Until different outside stimulation is received,
like seeing a different city, both brains would be running
identical programs in parallel, so John Clark would have only
one conscious experience regardless of how many identical brains
were involved.
True, but what is the relevance? The differentiation *has* already
occurred.
> He should just never expect experiencing being in two cities,
and the point is that the guy cannot see the difference, unless
telepathy
Telepathy?? Oh for christ sake!
Ok, nice. No telepathy, but then you are the one who seem to imply
that we can distinguish a simple teleportation from a duplication-
differentiation. If that is not telepathy ... Of course comp disallow
such telepathy, thus you can't distinguish a simple teleportation from
a duplication, and thus my point in the preceding post was not refuted.
Try again,
Bruno
John K Clark
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