On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 4:27 AM, Brent Meeker <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On 1/4/2016 2:47 PM, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 Telmo Menezes < <[email protected]> > [email protected]> wrote: > > >>> >> >>> Subjectivity, especially my subjectivity, is the most important thing in >>> the universe; or at least it is in my opinion. >>> >>> >> >> > >> I am not disagreeing, it is just surprising to read this from you >> considering your consistent refusal to engage with arguments that rely on >> first person / third person distinctions. >> > > Not true at all, all I ask is that it's clear who the first person is > who the third person is and who the referent of personal pronouns is; in > everyday life this is easy but not in a world with people duplicating > machines. > >> > > >> Perhaps you are right that native Hawaiians live in our culture -- >> perhaps not, as you yourself posit below when you claim to possess >> knowledge that they do not. >> > > The > > native Hawaiians > > have access to the exact same information as I do but they prefer not to > access it, and you prefer to make lame excuses for this intellectual > laziness > and patronize it. > > > >> > >> Perhaps you are right that building scientific instruments at all costs >> >> > > At all costs? We're not talking about building a concentration camp > or a toxic waste dump, we're talking about a making a telescope. > > >> > >> is the way to enrich the entire human race -- perhaps not, and things are >> more complicated than that. >> > > No, I don't think things are one bit > more complicated than that > . Most issues are not black and white there is a grey area, but not > this time, this time it couldn't be clearer, this is a dispute between > knowledge and ignorance between darkness and light. > > > >> I agree with you that ignorance is probably the biggest problem of our >> times. >> > > Do you also agree that making excuses for a problem will not solve a > problem? > > > > >> What I am claiming (from the beginning) is that insulting the ignorant, >> > > I said the ignorant are ignoramuses and I said barbarians behave > barbarically; is telling the truth an insult? Even if it is sometimes > telling a insult is the right thing to do and this is one of those times. > > >> > >> or forcing their hand does not solve that problem. >> > > > If we force their hand they'd still be ignorant barbarians but we'd have > the Thirty Meter Telescope and the entire human race would be enriched > because of it. > > >> > >> Insulting the ignorant makes you feel good about yourself and gives you a >> dopamine shot, >> > > Yes, and it clears my sinuses too. Very refreshing! > > >> > >> but it accomplishes nothing. >> > > But of course patronizing contemptible ignoramuses and making excuses > for them so they feel comfortable in continuing to wallow in ignorance > accomplishes > wonders. > > >> > >> Forcing other people to conform to the world view >> > > Like forcing other people to take the mother earth father sky world > view seriously. > > >> > >> and way of life of the dominant power does not produce good results >> > > But forcing the majority to conform to the minority world view always > produces good results? > Telmo, s > ometimes in life it is impossible for everybody to be happy > ; > > t > he knowledge tribe will be unhappy if the telescope is not build and the > ignorance tribe will be unhappy if it is. I am unhappy because I am a > member of the knowledge tribe and we lost. > You are a member of a different tribe. A > re you happy? > > >> > >> Let me ask you something: how many research grants and scientific >> resources could be created with the money that has been spent on >> unnecessary wars? >> > > 42. > > >> > >> On the TSA? On spying on everyone? Shouldn't we solve these things before >> claiming moral superiority? >> > > Do you think we shouldn't try to solve any problem until we can solve > every problem? I do not feel the slightest bit embarrassed to say in a > loud clear voice the I John K Clark feel that I am morally superior to the > ignorant Hawaiian barbarians who destroyed the glorious Thirty Meter > Telescope! I think they're scum. > > > >> > >> What about the fact that we not only tolerate but make allies out of one >> of the most brutal, anti-science, anti-knowledge, anti-freedom regimes in >> existence (Saudi Arabia)? >> > > I don't know who "we" is > > nor do I know what you mean by "tolerate" > . You're starting to sound like George W Bush, > are you suggesting "we" go to war with Saudi Arabia > ? > I do know that the old saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" makes > some logical sense > in our imperfect world. > > Saudi Arabia > and Iran are both complete bastards but they hate each other's guts and > Iran won't deal with the USA but Saudi Arabia will, so siding with > Saudi Arabia > may be the least bad decision. B > ut I don't know what > any of > that has to do with the Thirty Meter Telescope. > > >>> >> >>> T >>> he International Space Station >>> is by far the most expensive "scientific" instrument ever made and is >>> also close to useless and a >>> particle accelerator has't found anything surprising in nearly half a >>> century >>> but telescopes certainly have and >>> the thirty meter telescope >>> >>> could >>> >>> have >>> >>> seen >>> t >>> hings 156 times dimmer >>> >>> than what the Hubble can see >>> >>> and WHY DO YOU DEFEND THESE PEOPLE? I don't get it. >>> >> >> > >> I defend these people because they have done nothing to me >> > > Well they have certainly done something to me! Religious numskulls in > Hawaii have deprived me of knowledge about the universe I would otherwise > have had and they did so for a *IDIOTIC* reason. I can never forgive them > for that. Never. > > >> > >> and I don't remember being offered their land. >> > > And I don't remember them ever owning that land. And I don't give a damn > who their great great great great great grandfather was. > > > > >> I did not know that this was a core "liberal" belief, >> > > > Along with "loud minorities that constantly whine about injustices that > happened centuries > b > efore they were born > > are always the good guys" liberals have several other core beliefs > : > > greenhouse gasses are bad and nuclear power that doesn't produce any are > bad too, insecticides and artificial fertilizer are bad but so are plants > that don't need them, genital mutilation is bad but allowing Muslims to > perform it on helpless children even in western nations is good because > of cultural heritage, > starvation is bad and so are plants that produce more food, ignorance is > bad but the Prime Directive which says don't change anything is good. > >> > >> but surely it is contradictory >> > > Yes indeed. > > > > >> The ethical question we are investigating is: "what makes something >> yours". >> > > > It's > a bit > more than that. The Hawaiian supreme court already decided that a certain > gaggle of pea-brains has the legal right to destroy the telescope > because of who their ancestors were > , they did not say it was the right thing to do. Even if Donald Trump had > a clear uncontested legal deed to the land if he refused to let it be used > for the telescope because he > w > anted to build a casino or anything else there I would not hesitate to > call > > Donald Trump > > ignorant scum. And religious Hawaiians of native descent are no better > than Donald Trump > even if they have better hair. > > >> > >>> I like labels because coherent thought would be >>> >>> impossible without them. >>> >> >> > >> You are making a logical mistake. The fact that coherent thought is not >> possible without categories does not imply that all categories are valid or >> useful. >> > > Obviously all generalization all always false, every single one of > them, absolutely no exceptions. But putting a ignorant and barbaric label > on somebody who is > ignorant and barbaric > is valid and useful. > > >> > >> Some categories are just a subtle form of name calling / ad hominem, >> > > I'm sorry if I was subtle, it was certainly not my intention to be > subtle. I'll try to make amends: religious Hawaiians of native descent who > destroyed the Thirty Meter Telescope are *ASSHOLES!* > > > >> > >> "liberal" diverged so much from its original meaning >> > > > That's true, the words > > "liberal" and "conservative" had almost exactly opposite meaning > > in the 19th century than they have > > today. > > Back then > > a liberal was somebody > > who was > > eager to try new ideas and was in > > favor of more personal freedom, a conservative believed in the divine > right > > of kings. > > Today a self described liberal is someone who opposes any f > orm > of nuclear energy, opposes any form of genetic engineering, opposes free > speech on college campuses, and says that it was good that ignorant > barbarians destroyed a vital scientific instrument because the ignorant > barbarians > > are a minority that likes to talk about an injustice that happened a > century before their great grandparents were born. > > > And a conservative is against personal freedom, for war, the NSA, Homeland > Security, and the Chicago police. Against immigrants, blacks, hispanics, > women, gays, atheists, Muslims, and poor people in general. They're > against stem cell research, marijuana research, and gun safety research. > > You're as ill informed as those Hawiians. I'm a liberal (self-described) > who's supporting Bernie Sanders and Alan Grayson. I also support nuclear > power plants as part of the solution to global warming, I voted to fund > genetic engineering and stem cell research in California (a bond issue that > passed), and I have written several pointed letters criticising the > "microagression police" and "trigger warnings" on the local campus. > Well done. There is a really scary trend of authoritarianism brewing amongst university students these days, and I think a lot of people are afraid to say something. > And I'm not unique in this. I have half-a-dozen liberal friends around > here who share these opinions. > Me too. This is why it's silly to judge people's ideas by such fuzzy labels. Telmo. > > > Brent > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
