On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > To use a universal machine/number in the physical reality, you need to > implement it in the physical reality. >
Yes I've noticed, and there must be a reason for that fact. A purely mathematical Turing Machine is inferior to a physical Turing Machine ; in fact it would not be going too far to say it is infinity inferior because one can produce answers and one can not. >> >> Show me a example of Robinson Arithmetic >> calculating *anything* without using matter that obeys the laws of >> physics and I'll take your ideas seriously. >> > > > > I gave you many references. > Like hell you did! And you just admitted above that such a example does not exist. > > > You need just to understand how the truth of some arithmetical relations > You are exactly correct, my physical brain needs to understand Robinson arithmetic and follow the script for it to be able to produce a result. > > > it is a standard result that you can emulate a Turing machine in Robinson > Arithmetic. > Conway's game of LIFE can't emulate a Turing Machine or anything else if the computer running the LIFE program is turned off, and neither can Robinson Arithmetic. > > > Indeed, all Turing complete system can emulate each others. > Only if they're implemented in matter that obeys the laws of physics. > > But, unless you changed your mind on the fact that 2+2=4 is true > independently of you, > Truth is independent of me but the ability to separat true arithmetical statements from false ones is not independent of physics. > > > you admit to stop at step 3, for reason that you have not yet been able to > make clear. > Then I will try to make them clear, I stopped reading when things got silly. > > Physics has already been shown to be needed for consciousness > Then what are we arguing about? > > > What is not needed is that the atoms, or time, or space, or energy are > primitive. > Molecules are certainly not primitive and neither are atoms, but both are needed to produce consciousness. It's irrelevant if space, time or energy is primitive or not because you can't make consciousness with nothing but primitive stuff; consciousness needs complexity. > > > If you agree that you don't have to drink two times two beers to get the > truth of 2+2=4 > I don't have to do any drinking but if I want to know how much 2+2 is I have to think about it, and to think about something I need a physical brain. > > Arithmetic emulates all machine possible experiences > Not without physics it doesn't. > > > read a good book on this > I have yet to read a book so good it can think. Have you? John K Clark > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
