On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> a CONSCIOUS being named John Clark who has a brain made of matter that >> obeys the laws of physics needs a physical implementation to be >> >> CONSCIOUS of the fact that 2^57,885,161 − 1 is prime. > >
> > Only to say that to yourself and your pal. This is trivial. So something that effects the entire observable universe and makes you what you are is TRIVIAL?! This must be some new meaning of the word "trivial" that I have not previously been aware. >> >> Matter may or may not be primary, but the evidence is overwhelming that >> it's needed for intelligence and consciousness >> . >> > > > > Evidence are only that human intelligence and consciousness need matter. > Only?! There is exactly ZERO evidence that the number "5" is intelligent or conscious and without exception everything that has demonstrated even the slightest amount of intelligence or consciousness has used matter that obeys the laws of physics. > > > How could a universal Turing machine see the difference between > arithmetical and physical generic matter? > Easy, if a physical Turing machine that has access to physical building materials is programmed to make another physical Turing machine and then halt it then will eventually halt; but if it only has access to pure mathematics then it will never halt. And there is another way, if a Turing machine is able to add 2 and 2 then it knows it must be made of generic matter and not pure mathematics. However if it's a purely mathematical Turing machine then it's true, it couldn't tell the difference between arithmetical and physical generic matter , and in fact couldn't tell the difference between any 2 things, and couldn't see anything or think anything or calculate anything or DO anything at all. >> >> >> And we have brains made of matter that obeys the laws of physics. > > > > > Sure, but not necessarily primary one. > I said it before I'll say it again, it makes no difference if matter is primary or not because if you want intelligence or consciousness you're going to need matter. Molecules are not primary but if you want water you're going to need them. I asked "h ow would things change if that were not the case and Mr. PA was not completely convinced that the proof was valid ? " and you responded " I interpret your "completely convinced" by "has been able to provide a proof", when using the mathematical notions, and not the physical instantiation (which would beg the question) " . But if Mr. PA's opinions makes no difference to the physical world then Mr. PA can not be the source of physics. And that conclusion is not begging the question. >> >> >> Maybe that's true and any old Löbian machine lying around would justify >> things, but unfortunately nobody except you knows want Löbian machine >> is. And I'm no so sure about you. > > > > > I have defined them by any universal machine knowing that she is > universal, like PA, ZF, etc. > To hell with definitions, you can define a dragon as a fire breathing animal and the definition is clear and unambiguous, but that doesn't mean it exists. You haven't really understood something until you know how to construct it and Turing explained in detail exactly precisely how to build one of his machines. But where are your blueprints for a "Löbian machine"? I need them because I want to build a Löbian machine in my garage. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
