On 18 Feb 2016, at 03:43, John Clark wrote:
On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
>> a CONSCIOUS being named John Clark who has a brain made of
matter that obeys the laws of physics needs a physical
implementation to be CONSCIOUS of the fact that 2^57,885,161
− 1 is prime.
> Only to say that to yourself and your pal. This is trivial.
So something that effects the entire observable universe and makes
you what you are is TRIVIAL?!
That is not what I said. Read again.
This must be some new meaning of the word "trivial" that I have
not previously been aware.
>> Matter may or may not be primary, but the evidence is
overwhelming that it's needed for intelligence and consciousness
.
> Evidence are only that human intelligence and consciousness
need matter.
Only?! There is exactly ZERO evidence that the number "5"
is intelligent or conscious
In which relation? 5 is too little to be the code of a universal
machine, but that does not apply to any u such that phi_u(x,y) =
phi_x(y), with the phi_i determined by the initial universal theory
(here: RA).
and without exception everything that has demonstrated even the
slightest amount of intelligence or consciousness has used matter
that obeys the laws of physics.
But if that matter is need in some primitive way, then Mechanism is
simply false, contradicting your preview claim.
> How could a universal Turing machine see the difference
between arithmetical and physical generic matter?
Easy, if a physical Turing machine that has access to
physical building materials is programmed to make another physical
Turing machine and then halt it then will eventually halt;
but if it only has access to pure mathematics then it will
never halt.
That is a sort of magic which would contradict the very basic of
computer science. the halting problem has nothing to do with physics.
And there is another way, if a Turing machine is able to add 2 and 2
then it knows it must be made of generic matter and not pure
mathematics.
I was asking how it could know that. If mechanism is true, there is an
infinity of John Clark telling me this in arithmetic. How do you
single out one of them to claim only that one is real and not the
others, without adding in matter something not Turing emulable (and
not FPI-recoverable?).
However if it's a purely mathematical Turing machine then it's
true, it couldn't tell the difference between arithmetical and
physical generic matter, and in fact couldn't tell the
difference between any 2 things, and couldn't see
anything or think anything or calculate anything or DO
anything at all.
Then all the computer scientists and mathematical logicians are wrong.
Well, I know that some prominent physicists affirms things like this,
but this means only they did not grasp the very basic of theoretical
computer science, which embeds itself into arithmetic, as proved in
many textbooks.
I can even propose you to prove it here, but your tone is not the tome
of someone who want learn and build, but more to diffame and destroy.
Your tricks are too easy to predict, which demotivates me a bit with
regard to this. But ask if you want to see the proof.
>>And we have brains made of matter that obeys the laws of
physics.
> Sure, but not necessarily primary one.
I said it before I'll say it again, it makes no difference if
matter is primary or not because if you want intelligence or
consciousness you're going to need matter.
But we are discussing the existence of primary matter. With Mechanism,
you can't have it and associate it exclusively with consciousness
without adding non Turing emulable magic.
Molecules are not primary but if you want water you're going to need
them.
You are changing the subject.
I asked "how would things change if that were not the
case and Mr. PA was not completely convinced that the proof was
valid ?" and you responded " I interpret your "completely
convinced" by "has been able to provide a proof", when using the
mathematical notions, and not the physical instantiation (which
would beg the question)". But if Mr. PA's opinions makes
no difference to the physical world then Mr. PA can not be the
source of physics. And that conclusion is not begging the question.
PA's consciousness makes the appearance of the physical reality, in a
testable, and tested way, so it makes a big difference indeed. Physics
is given by the mathematics of the view defined by []p & <>t, with p
sigma_1. That has already been shown to lead to the very quantization
needed to get a quantum probability calculus at the place where it
should (assuming QM exact).
>> Maybe that's true and any old Löbian machine lying
around would justify things, but unfortunately nobody except you
knows want Löbian machine is. And I'm no so sure about you.
>I have defined them by any universal machine knowing that she
is universal, like PA, ZF, etc.
To hell with definitions, you can define a dragon as a fire
breathing animal and the definition is clear and unambiguous, but
that doesn't mean it exists.
PA does not exist? ZF does not exist?
Then 2+2 is not equal to 4, as PA and ZF existence are theorem of
elementary arithmetic (RA).
You haven't really understood something until you know how to
construct it and Turing explained in detail exactly precisely how to
build one of his machines.
That consists to define existence by physical existence, but in the
theory derived from computationalism, we use only the rule P(n) ===>
ExP(x). We don't assume Aristotle theology.
This looks like your new systematic error/trick I'm afraid.
But where are your blueprints for a "Löbian machine"? I need them
because I want to build a Löbian machine in my garage.
You have one in your skull, and if you add the induction axioms to
your operating system, you can easily made your computer into a Löbian
machine. See the programs in the appendice of my long french thesis
("conscience et mécanisme") for implementation.
Bruno
John K Clark
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
