On 15 Feb 2016, at 19:09, John Clark wrote:
On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 8:56 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
>> Giuseppe Peano did not have a brain made of matter
that obeyed the laws of physics?! Was he headless or just
brainless? Perhaps Giuseppe's mother had the Zika virus when she was
pregnant.
> I mean that there are zero evidence that his brain is made of
primary matter. Easy: there are no evidence at for primary matter.
Who cares? I maintain that matter is needed to produce both
intelligence and consciousness, it's irrelevant if matter is
primary or not.
But that is the question we are talking about.
I agree that to have human consciousness capable of manifest itself
with respect to you, matter is needed locally, but for the afterlife
question, the fact that primary matter exist is relevant. If it exist
and play some role, it is better to say "no" to the digitalist surgeon.
> PA proves ~(2+3= 7), without any need of primary matter.
Who has Mr. PA proven that to?
To us, we might say. But PA proves to itself, no matter what. There is
nothing contentious, it is tha basic of provability logic and machine
self-reference.
>> if Michelangelo had just displayed a huge block of natural
marble and said David was inside few would say he was a great artist.
>The analogy is misleading. A marble is a not a digital
machine, nor an effective theory, for which the presence theorem-
hood in an arithmetical property.
Michelangelo was able to differentiate between marble
that was David from marble that was not David; and Giuseppe
Peano was able to differentiate between true mathematical
statements and false mathematical statements. And both
Michelangelo and Giuseppe Peano had brains made of matter that
obeyed the laws of physics.
But PA does that without Peano the man. The fact that PA proves that
2+2=4 is itself a well known theorem of PA. We have both that
PA proves 2+2=4
and
PA proves that PA proves 2+2=4. PA proves beweisbar("2+2=4")
Just study Gödel's 1931 paper which shows this with all details.
>> A machine made of matter that obeys the laws of physics
can correctly inform John Clark that 2^57,885,161 −
1 is prime,
> I doubt this,
Do you doubt that 2^57,885,161 − 1 is prime or do you doubt that
John Clark was informed that 2^57,885,161 − 1 is prime?
I doubt that you can verify this by doing a physical computation. We
believe that because we believe in some theorem and a reasoning.
> but even if true, that would only shows that JC needs a
physical implementation to get a physical result,
It shows that a CONSCIOUS being named John Clark who has a brain
made of matter
This begs the question if you think that it is made of primary matter.
If not, it is not relevant for the point which we were discussing,
that mechanism makes artficial brain vain with respect to the
immortality goal. people will do artificial brain, but only to see the
next soccer cup or something. We are born immortal, if comp is true.
We cannot know that we are immortal, because we cannot know for sure
that comp is true.
that obeys the laws of physics needs a physical implementation
to be CONSCIOUS of the fact that 2^57,885,161 − 1 is
prime.
Only to say that to yourself and your pal. This is trivial. mechanism
needs a computer, and the physical is made necessary by the self-
reference logics. Bt that makes my point: physics is not the
fundamental science: it can be justified by any Löbian machine in any
turing-complete theory.
> A digital machine is not made of anything
If it's not made of matter that obeys the laws of physics then
that digital machine will never change, and that means it will
never do anything.
That argument would refute Einstein General relativity theory, which
provides a block universe, statical view of reality in which the
observers is still able to measure time, from its personal point of
view, in the relative way.
You can't applaud Einstein for GR and criticize the same type of
relativization of time in the mechanist theory of cognitive activity.
And Everett theory confirms up to now all what can be considered as
startling in Mechanism.
Bruno
John K Clark
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