On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 4:56 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> 5 is too little to be the code of a universal machine, but that does not >>> apply to any u such that phi_u(x,y) = phi_x(y) >>> >> >> >> So I guess the ASCII characters "phi_u(x,y) = phi_x(y)" are >> intelligent and conscious. >> > > > > u is, relatively to the chosen base phi_i. (and with the usual abuse of > language, as it is not the number u which do the thinking, but the > arithmetical reality of what u is doing. > Translated from the original bafflegab: "Yes, the ASCII characters are intelligent and conscious. Likewize a brain does not think, only the person supported by that brain. > Don't be ridiculous, thinking is what a brain does just as going fast is what a racing car does. > > > By primitive I mean "need to be postulated to be present". > Molecules are needed for water to be present, sugar is needed for Coca Cola to be present, and matter is needed for intelligence or consciousness to be present , so according to you molecules and sugar and matter are all "primitive". > > > Matter is considered as primitive means that matter needs to be postulated > to explain its appearance. > For the ninety second time, I'm not talking about the appearance of matter, I'm talking about intelligence and consciousness. > > > Your argument at step 3 has been refuted by at least 5 members of this > list, > I f the "refutations" were any good 5 would be unnecessary, one would have been sufficient. And there were many more than 5 but most were just insults or incoherent ravings and none were worth more than a bucket of cold spit. > > > Turing machine can add 2 and 2 without any matter at all, they do that > infinitely often in the arithmetical block mindscape. > And Harry Potter can perform magic in JK Rowling's fictional mindscape. > > To invoke your God will not help here. > Wow, calling a guy known for disliking religion religious, never heard that one before, at least I never heard it before I was 12. > > > there are evidence that nature is Turing universal, but that programs will > stop or not independently of any physical laws. > A Turing Machine only works because of the laws of physics, for example F=MA. If that physical law were not true the machine's tape could not be moved so there would be no reason to worry about when it would stop because the machine would never even start. > > as the UDA is Turing machine accessible, that is the AUDA point. > You've forgotten IHA. > > Like a creationist, you keep referring to your god to refute a logical > claim, > Wow, calling a guy known for disliking religion religious, never heard that one before, at least I never heard it before I was 12. >> >> If you're right (and of course you are not) then all the computer >> scientists and mathematical logicians are wrong >> because what I've described above is how the world works. >> > > > Proof? > You're the one making extraordinary claims not me, and extraordinary claims ( like arithmetic is intelligent and conscious) requires extraordinary evidence yet you have none. And all you have is a very silly "proof" that completely falls apart less than halfway through. >> >> >> I don't care if matter is primary or not! > > > > > What is your problem then? You lost me here. I have never put any doubt on > matter, and I explained the fact that human or machine consciousness needs > matter. > The problem, which I'm certain you already know, is that you believe the caveat " human or machine " is necessary in the above sentence but I do not. >> >> >> My subject has never changed, generic matter (maybe primitive maybe not) >> is needed for intelligence and consciousness. > > > > > Yes, it is a consequence of mechanism. I have never put this in doubt. > Now you've lost me. What are we arguing about? > > >>> >> >>> PA's consciousness makes >>> [blah blah] >>> >> > >> >> Just so everybody is clear about this, Bruno Marchal believes that the >> Peano Axioms are conscious! What about the multiplication table? > > > > It is the person which is conscious, not the Peano axioms, which is more > like a body. > And both the person and the body are made of matter that obeys the laws of physics. So what are we arguing about? > >> > you don't understand what a > "Löbian machine" > is and thus cannot construct one. > > > > I have constructed one. > Then you should start the Marchal Manufacturing Corporation and become the world's first trillionaire. > > > You are a bigot > [...] > You start your bigot handwaving again. > [...] > You spread the lies of some bigot philosophers > Some people on this list have said I'm a rude name caller, but I have never called you a bigot. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. 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