On Sun, 13 Aug 2017 at 9:19 am, Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 13/08/2017 9:05 am, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > On 13 August 2017 at 08:48, Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> On 13/08/2017 12:04 am, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >> >> On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 at 4:52 pm, Bruce Kellett < >> <[email protected]>[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On 12/08/2017 1:42 pm, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >>> >>> >>> First person experience is individual and private. The third person >>> point of view is the view of an external observer. Suppose person A is >>> observed laughing by person B. The behaviour - the laughing - can be >>> observed by anyone; this is the third person point of view. Person A might >>> be experiencing happiness or amusement; this is the first person point of >>> view and only person A himself has it. Finally, person B has visual and >>> auditory experiences and knowledge of the outside world (there are laughing >>> entities in it), and this is again from the first person point of view. I >>> would say that knowledge is a type of experience, and therefore always >>> first person and private; information is that which is third person >>> communicable. But perhaps this last point is a matter of semantics. >>> >>> >>> If your knowledge is gained from someone else, it is necessarily >>> communicable information, and thus third person. First person is your >>> personal experience, which is not communicable. However, knowledge gained >>> by experience is communicable, and thus third person. Otherwise, all that >>> you say above is mere logic chopping. >>> >> >> Most first person experiences are based on third person information, >> namely sensory data. >> >> >> How is sensory data 'third person information'? That would make >> everything 3p, and you have eliminated the first person POV. If I >> experience the pleasure of sitting in the sun on a fine spring morning, >> that is surely a first person experience, and entirely sensory in origin. >> >> Even a priori knowledge, such mathematical knowledge, starts with >> learning about the subjectvfrom outside sources. >> >> Returning to the point, why were you claiming that the subject on a >> duplication experiment cannot have first person knowledge of duplication? >> That would mean no-one could ever have first person knowledge of anything. >> >> >> If you go into the duplicating machine without being told what it is, >> then you are duplicated and come out in Moscow, you will know that you have >> been transported from Helsinki, but how can you know anything about any >> duplicates? As far as you know -- not knowing the protocol -- you could >> simply have been rendered unconscious and flown to Moscow. How does 1p >> experience tell the difference? >> >> This is why I think some 3p is being mixed in with 1p experiences in this >> duplication protocol. The subject only knows the protocol by being told >> about it. How does he know he is not being lied to? >> > > This is the case with any experience whatsoever: you come to a conclusion > about what has happened based on your observations and deductions, but you > could be mistaken. > > > That would appear to put a large hole in Bruno's distinction between > quanta and qualia. The sensation of the sun on my face is veridicial -- I > might be mistaken about it being the sun, but the sensation is > incontrovertible. But things that I am told about are in a different > category -- I have no immediate incontrovertible experience associated with > them. I am aware of words being spoken, but I am not immediately aware of > their veracity. > You feel the Sun on your face, see the Sun in the sky and make deductions about a hot, bright object in space. It is an analogous process when you hear human speech and come to conclusions about the world. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
