On 12 August 2017 at 13:13, Bruce Kellett <bhkell...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> On 12/08/2017 12:23 pm, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> On 12 August 2017 at 12:12, Bruce Kellett <bhkell...@optusnet.com.au>
>> On 12/08/2017 3:22 am, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> On 11 Aug 2017, at 13:40, Bruce Kellett wrote:
>>>> Are you telling us that P(W) ≠ P(M) ≠ 1/2. What do *you* expect when
>>>>> pushing the button in Helsinki?
>>>> I expect to die, to be 'cut', according to the protocol. The guys in W
>>>> and M are two new persons, and neither was around in H to make any
>>>> prediction whatsoever.
>>> Fair enough.
>>> You think the digital mechanism thesis is wrong.
>> There is a fundamental problem with your person-duplication thought
>> experiments. This is that the way in which you interpret the scenario
>> inherently involves an irreducible 1p-3p confusion. The first person (1p)
>> concerns only things that the person can experience directly for himself.
>> It cannot, therefore, involve things that he is told by other people,
>> because such things are necessarily third person (3p) knowledge --
>> knowledge which he does not have by direct personal experience. So our
>> subject does not know the protocol of the thought experiment from direct
>> experience (he has only been told about it, 3p). When he presses the button
>> in the machine, he can have no 1p expectations about what will happen
>> (because he has not yet experienced it). He presses the button in the
>> spirit of pure experimental enquiry -- "what will happen if I do this?" His
>> prior probability for any particular outcome is zero. So when he presses
>> the button in Helsinki, and opens the door to find himself in Moscow, he
>> will say, "WTF!". In particular, he will not have gained any 1p knowledge
>> of duplication. In fact, he is for ever barred from any such knowledge.
>> If he repeats the experiment many times, he will simply see his
>> experiences as irreducibly random between M and W, with some probability
>> that he can estimate by keeping records over a period of time. If you take
>> the strict 1p view of the thought experiment, the parallel with the early
>> development of QM is more evident. In QM, no-one has the 3p knowledge that
>> all possible outcomes are realized (in different worlds).
>> So, before pressing the button in H, his prior probabilities are p(M) =
>> p(W) = 0, with probably, p(H) = 1. On the other hand, if you allow 3p
>> knowledge of the protocol to influence his estimation of probabilities
>> before the experiment, you can't rule out 3p knowledge that he can gain at
>> any time after pressing the button. In which case, the 1p-3p confusion is
>> complete, p(M) = p(W) = 1, and he can expect to see both cities. In that
>> case, the pure 1p view becomes irrelevant.
> The subject directly experiences the details of the experimental protocol,
> through hearing or reading about it. All knowledge is 1p; information from
> the external world comes to me via my senses and affects my knowledge.
> You render the 1p-3p distinction meaningless.
First person experience is individual and private. The third person point
of view is the view of an external observer. Suppose person A is observed
laughing by person B. The behaviour - the laughing - can be observed by
anyone; this is the third person point of view. Person A might be
experiencing happiness or amusement; this is the first person point of view
and only person A himself has it. Finally, person B has visual and auditory
experiences and knowledge of the outside world (there are laughing entities
in it), and this is again from the first person point of view. I would say
that knowledge is a type of experience, and therefore always first person
and private; information is that which is third person communicable. But
perhaps this last point is a matter of semantics.
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