On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 at 4:52 pm, Bruce Kellett <bhkell...@optusnet.com.au>

> On 12/08/2017 1:42 pm, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> On 12 August 2017 at 13:13, Bruce Kellett <bhkell...@optusnet.com.au>
> wrote:
>> On 12/08/2017 12:23 pm, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>> On 12 August 2017 at 12:12, Bruce Kellett < <bhkell...@optusnet.com.au>
>> bhkell...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>> On 12/08/2017 3:22 am, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>> On 11 Aug 2017, at 13:40, Bruce Kellett wrote:
>>>>> Are you telling us that P(W) ≠ P(M) ≠ 1/2. What do *you* expect when
>>>>>> pushing the button in Helsinki?
>>>>> I expect to die, to be 'cut', according to the protocol. The guys in W
>>>>> and M are two new persons, and neither was around in H to make any
>>>>> prediction whatsoever.
>>>> Fair enough.
>>>> You think the digital mechanism thesis is wrong.
>>> Correct.
>>> There is a fundamental problem with your person-duplication thought
>>> experiments. This is that the way in which you interpret the scenario
>>> inherently involves an irreducible 1p-3p confusion. The first person (1p)
>>> concerns only things that the person can experience directly for himself.
>>> It cannot, therefore, involve things that he is told by other people,
>>> because such things are necessarily third person (3p) knowledge --
>>> knowledge which he does not have by direct personal experience. So our
>>> subject does not know the protocol of the thought experiment from direct
>>> experience (he has only been told about it, 3p). When he presses the button
>>> in the machine, he can have no 1p expectations about what will happen
>>> (because he has not yet experienced it). He presses the button in the
>>> spirit of pure experimental enquiry -- "what will happen if I do this?" His
>>> prior probability for any particular outcome is zero. So when he presses
>>> the button in Helsinki, and opens the door to find himself in Moscow, he
>>> will say, "WTF!". In particular, he will not have gained any 1p knowledge
>>> of duplication. In fact, he is for ever barred from any such knowledge.
>>> If he repeats the experiment many times, he will simply see his
>>> experiences as irreducibly random between M and W, with some probability
>>> that he can estimate by keeping records over a period of time. If you take
>>> the strict 1p view of the thought experiment, the parallel with the early
>>> development of QM is more evident. In QM, no-one has the 3p knowledge that
>>> all possible outcomes are realized (in different worlds).
>>> So, before pressing the button in H, his prior probabilities are p(M) =
>>> p(W) = 0, with probably, p(H) = 1. On the other hand, if you allow 3p
>>> knowledge of the protocol to influence his estimation of probabilities
>>> before the experiment, you can't rule out 3p knowledge that he can gain at
>>> any time after pressing the button. In which case, the 1p-3p confusion is
>>> complete, p(M) = p(W) = 1, and he can expect to see both cities. In that
>>> case, the pure 1p view becomes irrelevant.
>> The subject directly experiences the details of the experimental
>> protocol, through hearing or reading about it. All knowledge is 1p;
>> information from the external world comes to me via my senses and affects
>> my knowledge.
>> You render the 1p-3p distinction meaningless.
> First person experience is individual and private. The third person point
> of view is the view of an external observer. Suppose person A is observed
> laughing by person B. The behaviour - the laughing - can be observed by
> anyone; this is the third person point of view. Person A might be
> experiencing happiness or amusement; this is the first person point of view
> and only person A himself has it. Finally, person B has visual and auditory
> experiences and knowledge of the outside world (there are laughing entities
> in it), and this is again from the first person point of view. I would say
> that knowledge is a type of experience, and therefore always first person
> and private; information is that which is third person communicable. But
> perhaps this last point is a matter of semantics.
> If your knowledge is gained from someone else, it is necessarily
> communicable information, and thus third person. First person is your
> personal experience, which is not communicable. However, knowledge gained
> by experience is communicable, and thus third person. Otherwise, all that
> you say above is mere logic chopping.

Most first person experiences are based on third person information, namely
sensory data. Even a priori knowledge, such mathematical knowledge, starts
with learning about the subjectvfrom outside sources.

Returning to the point, why were you claiming that the subject on a
duplication experiment cannot have first person knowledge of duplication?
That would mean no-one could ever have first person knowledge of anything.

> --
Stathis Papaioannou

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