On 25 Aug 2017, at 20:46, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
>> Then who will be the judge to determine what the
name of the one and only one city the Helsinki man ended up seeing?
> The Helsinki man.
I know it's not Helsinki but what is the name of the ONE and only
ONE city that the individual formally known as "the Helsinki man"
is in now after "the Helsinki man" became TWO?
OK. The "helsinki man" has become 2, and the question was on its first
person experience possible, so the only way to get the answer is to
ask each copy. Both have a definite answer, and both are 100% correct.
Just ask them. That is obvious when you remember that in Helsinki the
question is about the future 1p experience. So you are again doing the
1p/3p confusion like if we were trying to prove the existence of some
3p indeterminacy where there is none.
> I have at least three times given you version without pronouns
Bullshit.
>>> Please use the diaries
>> For what? They were written yesterday and today nobody
can agree on who wrote them.
> I do not see this at all.
W says I wrote it, and M says no I wrote it.
And they are polite mechanist, and so do not consider the doppelganger
as zombie, so both agree that they got a precise city (and thus
obtained the answer to the question asked), and both agree that they
could not have predicted that answer for obvious mechanistic reason.
> Yesterday, it is the H-man who wrote the prediction. And
today, the version of the H-man in M can verify [...]
They can't verify a damn thing if the diary has a prediction about
the ONE and only ONE city the ONE Helsinki man will or will not
see because now there are TWO Helsinki men seeing TWO entirely
different cities.
In the 3p, or 3-1p view, which is not what the question was about. The
verification is 1p, and *about* the 1p-experience.
>> And today after you've learned all there is to know about it
that's STILL the best you can say, and that is NOTHING like
coin throwing! If you ask me today how a coin landed yesterday I
just tell you, I don't say "it turned out the coin landed heads or
tails but not both with 50% probability", I don't mention
probability at all, I just mention the face it turned out
that the coin landed on, and that can be done with ONE WORD, not a
paragraph of bafflegab, just ONE WORD because that's all
that's needed .
> That is exactly the same in the FIRST-PERSON POV OF EACH COPY.
Bullshit.
> The guys open the door, and both answer it with one word:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure 1+1=2 .
> Just put yourself at the place of one of the copy
Just put yourself in the place of both copies.
I can do that, and I suggest you do that too. You will see that both
see only one city, and both understand that they could not have
predicted it. yes, the M-man see M, and the W-man see W, and that is
tautological, but what is not tautological for any of the copies, is
that the H-man has turn M, for "me", and the H-man has turned W, for
"me", where "me" denotes the individual first person experience.
>>> So bot confirms "W v M",
>> No, it turned out neither saw W or M.
> That *is* gibberish.
Both are the Helsinki man and W didn't see M and M didn't see W so
the Helsinki man saw no city at all.
?
Yes that's gibberish but it makes as much sense as what you're
saying.
That is not an argument. Only your badly defended idea. The
"gibberish" aspect has been shown equivalent to your constant 1p pov
elimnination. Indeed the 1p pov of the copies.
When JKC-0000100111110, in the iterated room-0 and room-1 duplication,
tell you that he has never been able to predict any of its past
measurement, and has no clue which next result to expect, you do not
listen. You act like if it was a zombie.
> And when you observe a coin flip you don't see it land heads
or tails either.
> Indeed, but this makes my point.
If your point is the duplicating experiment is nothing like a coin
flip then you've made your point well.
The self-duplication is nothing like the coin flip in the third-person
description.
The self-duplication is undistinguishable from the coin flip in the
first person description.
(And this is true only if you don't shake the coin too long, as with
QM, if you shake the flip sufficiently longly to add up the
Heisenberg uncertainties, you will superpose yourself in the two
(times infinity or big number) histories. This reduces the coin flip
to the quantum FPI (Everett). My point, with respect to physics, is
that when we assume Mechanism, the whole set of histories emerges from
the solution of a diophantine polynomial equation of degree four.
> What is your agenda?
Gee I thought you already knew, my agenda is the same as
Conan the Barbarian's, to crush my enemies and see them
driven before me and to hear the lamentations of their women.
That was pretty obvious indeed but I appreciate the clarifying
confession. So a participant of the group was right, and you are a
troll indeed.
Could you troll or crush instead on step 7 or 8? In those steps, I am
pretty sure you will be less alone, and indeed, the genuine
difficulties are there.
About the step 3, I will no more answer any post in which you commit
the 1p/3p confusion, except by referring to this post. ("see my post
27/08/2017").
I will soon, well after the exams period, create a new thread: "the
starting point", which will lead to an improvement of step 7, 8 and
the relation with the theorems of Gödel, Löb, and Solovay, and
perhaps also the relation with the idealist theologies (3p, 0p) and
the mystical experiences reports (1p).
Bruno
John K Clark
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