On Friday, November 17, 2017 at 6:41:43 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote: > > > > On 11/17/2017 4:04 PM, [email protected] <javascript:> wrote: > > > > On Friday, November 17, 2017 at 2:38:40 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 11/17/2017 1:17 PM, [email protected] wrote: >> >> *I think "must" is unwarranted, certainly in the case of the MWI. Rather, >> it ASSUMES all possible measurements must be realized in some world. I see >> no reason for this assumption other than an insistence to fully reify the >> wf in order to avoid "collapse". Same situation in String Theory; no >> "must"; simply other possible universes in the landscape. Do you really >> think that when you pull a slot machine and get some outcome, the 10 >> million other possible outcomes occur in 10 million other universe? Seems >> ridiculous to me.* >> >> >> The problem is a conflict: >> >> (1) If the wave-function collapses when does it do it and what is the >> process. >> > > > *The fact that we have unsolved problems, does not suggest we should grasp > as straws such as the MWI. * > > >> Does a human being have to look at the record? Is simply having a >> recorde enough? But then what constitutes a record? Does it have be made >> of more than 100 atoms, more than 10, more than 1? How is the record >> created, if not by evolution of the Schrodinger equation? >> > > > *If you consider a specific experiment, say the double slit using micro > objects like electrons, all you need is a recorder, any recorder, and if it > is designed to determine which-way, the interference is destroyed. Thus, > you don't need humans or consciousness in any form to collapse the wf. > Feynman discusses this and it's quite conclusive IMO. * > > > But you need to "collapse" it somehow by measuring the position of the > electrons - otherwise there is no interference pattern. So the question > remains, what is a measurement? If you replace the film by an array of > atoms and you plan to measure where the electron lands by which atom it > strikes and ejects from the array, you will them have to make a second > measurement to see which atoms are missing. So "measurement" must include > more interaction than that; enough interaction to constitute a "record". > But that seems to just reword the problem. How much of a "record"? and > what constitutes a record? >
*I think these details can be worked out on a case-by-case basis. But the main point seems solid; no human observers or consciousness needed to produce interference, which is tantamount to collapse. Do you agree to that? AG * > >> (2)If it's created by a splitting of the world, then you still have the >> same questions with "splitting" in places of "collapse" except that the SE >> does provide the evolution. But then in the Schrodinger cat experiment the >> world is splitting *continuously*. >> > > *IMO, the problem posed by the cat is a macro object in an unthinkable > superposition of Alive and Dead simultaneously. But if the object is macro, > won't the interference terms be vanishingly small, so small that the > unthinkable conclusion does not occur in the lifetime of the universe? IOW, > FAPP there is no superposition and thus no enigmatic superposition.* > > > Forget the cat. It's the radioactive atom whose emission will break the > vial that causes the continuous splitting of the world: decay at > 0:00...0:01...0:02.... And is FAPP enough? There are going to be > intermediate cases in which there are 10 dof instead 1e30 dof, and the > superposition can be eliminated by a change of basis. > *FAPP is probably not enough. What is the change of basis that eliminates the superposition? For the singlet state, Bruce says there is none and that I may have misunderstood your earlier comments that every superposition can be eliminated by a change of basis. TIA, AG.* > > Brent > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
