On 11/17/2017 6:08 PM, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, November 17, 2017 at 6:41:43 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote:
On 11/17/2017 4:04 PM, agrays...@gmail.com <javascript:> wrote:
On Friday, November 17, 2017 at 2:38:40 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote:
On 11/17/2017 1:17 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
*I think "must" is unwarranted, certainly in the case of the
MWI. Rather, it ASSUMES all possible measurements must be
realized in some world. I see no reason for this assumption
other than an insistence to fully reify the wf in order to
avoid "collapse". Same situation in String Theory; no
"must"; simply other possible universes in the landscape. Do
you really think that when you pull a slot machine and get
some outcome, the 10 million other possible outcomes occur
in 10 million other universe? Seems ridiculous to me.*
The problem is a conflict:
(1) If the wave-function collapses when does it do it and
what is the process.
*The fact that we have unsolved problems, does not suggest we
should grasp as straws such as the MWI. *
Does a human being have to look at the record? Is simply
having a recorde enough? But then what constitutes a
record? Does it have be made of more than 100 atoms, more
than 10, more than 1? How is the record created, if not by
evolution of the Schrodinger equation?
*If you consider a specific experiment, say the double slit using
micro objects like electrons, all you need is a recorder, any
recorder, and if it is designed to determine which-way, the
interference is destroyed. Thus, you don't need humans or
consciousness in any form to collapse the wf. Feynman discusses
this and it's quite conclusive IMO.
*
But you need to "collapse" it somehow by measuring the position of
the electrons - otherwise there is no interference pattern. So
the question remains, what is a measurement? If you replace the
film by an array of atoms and you plan to measure where the
electron lands by which atom it strikes and ejects from the array,
you will them have to make a second measurement to see which atoms
are missing. So "measurement" must include more interaction than
that; enough interaction to constitute a "record". But that seems
to just reword the problem. How much of a "record"? and what
constitutes a record?
*I think these details can be worked out on a case-by-case basis. But
the main point seems solid; no human observers or consciousness needed
to produce interference, which is tantamount to collapse. Do you agree
to that? AG
*
I agree that a human observer is not necessary...even a Trump supporter
would suffice.
(2)If it's created by a splitting of the world, then you
still have the same questions with "splitting" in places of
"collapse" except that the SE does provide the evolution.
But then in the Schrodinger cat experiment the world is
splitting */continuously/*.
*
*
*IMO, the problem posed by the cat is a macro object in an
unthinkable superposition of Alive and Dead simultaneously. But
if the object is macro, won't the interference terms be
vanishingly small, so small that the unthinkable conclusion does
not occur in the lifetime of the universe? IOW, FAPP there is no
superposition and thus no enigmatic superposition.*
Forget the cat. It's the radioactive atom whose emission will
break the vial that causes the continuous splitting of the world:
decay at 0:00...0:01...0:02.... And is FAPP enough? There are
going to be intermediate cases in which there are 10 dof instead
1e30 dof, and the superposition can be eliminated by a change of
basis.
*
*
*FAPP is probably not enough. What is the change of basis that
eliminates the superposition? For the singlet state, Bruce says there
is none and that I may have misunderstood your earlier comments that
every superposition can be eliminated by a change of basis. TIA, *
No, Bruce was thinking of what /*local */operator could be implemented.
In theory any pure state can be an element of a basis. So if the
superposition is pure it will an eigenstate of some
operator....although in general it will often be one that is impractical
to implement.
Brent
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