On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 9:33 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> If you believe that is not possible then you must believe the most >> important part of us is supernatural and can not be duplicated because it >> is not amenable to the scientific method or even to logic. In other words >> you believe in the soul. If I believed in crap like that I’d burn all >> my scientific books get some saffron robes and join a monastery or >> something. > > > No. It means that you have a criteria to distinguish undistinguishable > state You actually want me to tell you my criteria for distinguishing between a un-distinguishable state and a distinguishable one? Very well, in one I can tell a difference because that's what "distinguishable" means, and in the other I can't because the prefix "un" means the opposite. > > > *> You said your self that two identical brains located at two places > simultaneously will process one consciousness. * If the environment is identical yes, they evolve in lockstep at least for a while until random quantum variations and the butterfly effect cause them to diverge. > *> Yes, I believe in the soul, because it is defined by the conscious > owner of the unique personal diary, or memories.* There is absolutely nothing unique about that silly personal diary of yours and there is nothing unique about your memories either because because YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED and that is what the word "duplicated" means. > *> The soul is the greek [blah blah blah]* Greeks Greeks Greeks, with you its always the goddamn imbecilic no nothing Greeks! Hasn't anything of interest happened a little more recently, like in the last 2000 years? I hereby issue a challenge, when you respond to this post see if you can write the entire thing without the words "Greeks" or "diary". > *> You said yourself very recently in this thread, and also before, that > when the door of the reconstitution box, is not open, the consciousness is > unique* I said when the two boxes were closed the Helsinki man (that is to say the man who remembers being in Helsinki) had 2 brains but only one consciousness experience, but when box was opened and he saw different things and started forming different memories the Helsinki Man had 2 different conscious experiences. Do you disagree with what I just said? > *> You are avoiding the though experience. Let us consider that “1” > corresponds to “I measure where I feel to be, and see Washington” and “0” > if not. The H-guy survives in both cities, but once they both open the > door, one of them has to write 1 is the diary, and the other one has to > write 0.* >From day one I have clearly stated that for the thought experiment I accept that everybody involved is telling the truth so if one on they says I see city X I believe him and that's why I get so impatient with that moronic diary, it serves no purpose and just needlessly clutters up a already convoluted thought experiment. I get it, they are in different environments and so formed different memories I don't need the damn diary to figure that out. > *> By consulting their diaries, or their personal memories* Can we PLEASE drop the idiot diaries? I am perfectly willing to accept that their personal memories are true. > *> I don’t see how you don’t see that.* And I see perfectly well, as I have from day one, that if they are placed in environments that are not identical, and Moscow and Washington are not identical, then they will start to diverge and form different memories. I don't understand why you keep mentioning that as if its a revolutionary new discovery. > *> In helsinki, the guy knows that he will open the door, and get a > definite result. He just cannot be sure of which one. * Bruno, not only is the Helsinki guy unable to predict that "definite result" he will never ever EVER know what that "definite result" turned out to be. Doesn't that fact make you suspect that maybe just maybe you're just a little bit confused about what "definite result" means? The Helsinki man can't see one definite result if there is no longer one definite Helsinki man, and there no longer is because the Helsinki man HAS BEEN DUPLICATED and that is what "duplicated" means. What did you think it meant? > *> Washington and Moscow seem to me rather different environments. * Yes, and so they will form different memories, but information is physical so that means the arrangement of atoms in the two will be different. Identical arrangements of atoms will produce identical conscious experiences, different arrangements will produce different conscious experiences. So what's your point? > *> it is impossible to predict among the answers W and M, or 1 and 0, > which one will occur,* The reason its impossible to get the answer is because its impossible to state the question. > *> at both place, the survivor feels to be unique in one place * Yes and that fact is 100% predicable, one unique feeling survivor feels he’s in Washington and another unique feeling survivor feels he’s in Moscow. And both remember being the Helsinki man. So asking what one and only one city the Helsinki Man ended up seeing is dumb. So I ask again, what’s your point. > *> The guy enter with for example 000 in the diary. Then *[blah blah > blah] One day its Greeks and diaries and the next day its diaries and Greeks! Ahhhhhhh > *> Tell me if you get this.* I don't because there is nothing to get. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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