> On 21 Oct 2018, at 06:47, Philip Thrift <cloudver...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 5:55:46 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > On 10/20/2018 3:29 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 2:51:30 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 10/20/2018 11:24 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 10:33:04 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 10/19/2018 11:32 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >> On 19 Oct 2018, at 23:43, Brent Meeker <meek...@verizon.net <>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On 10/19/2018 11:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>> I work with people who studied religion all the times. You seem unaware >>> >>> that we can doubt Aristotle theology. >>> >> You seem unaware that there is not such thing. Your "Aristotle >>> >> theology" is a straw man you invented to beat with stick labelled >>> >> "primary matter". I'll bet that if you ask a 100 physicists, "Do you >>> >> believe in primary matter." you'll get 99 answers of "What??” >>> > Because they have been brainwashed since about 529, into the idea that >>> > “matter” is “primary matter”. >>> >>> No, they are not. It's simply irrelevant to them. They seek theories >>> to explain phenomena. They don't start by assuming some metaphysics. >>> They only care that the theory works. That's why it has been physicists >>> like Wheeler, Tegmark, Hawking,...who have wondered why equations work >>> at all. >>> >>> Brent >>> >>> >>> >>> What physicist doesn't assume some metaphysical assumptions? >>> >>> The 3 mentioned above talked (1 still talks) about metaphysics all the >>> time, of course. Even if they adopt a theory that someone >>> else created, they are adopting the metaphysics of that theory. When Sean >>> Carroll writes about the reality of the wave function, that's some heavy >>> metaphysics. >> >> Sounds like physics to me. Does Carroll say the wave function is "primary", >> that there can be nothing more fundamental? No, he doesn't. He knows that >> QM >> and GR are incompatible and he no doubt hopes to find something that >> explains both of them. Does he care whether that new thing is "primary"? >> No. >> >> Brent >> >> >> https://twitter.com/seanmcarroll/status/1051238813236752386 >> <https://twitter.com/seanmcarroll/status/1051238813236752386> >> >> Sean Carroll @seanmcarroll >> >> "Realism about the wave function is a good idea. (Even better, … about >> the quantum state, but I won’t be picky.)" >> re: Realism about the Wave Function >> http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/15153/ >> <http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/15153/> >> >>> >>> Every language has a metaphysics. >>> >>> - pt >>> >> >> "The world does not speak. Only we do. The world can, once we have >> programmed ourselves with a language, cause us to hold beliefs. But it >> cannot propose a language for us to speak." >> -- Richard Rorty, Contingency of Language >> [pdf] http://web.augsburg.edu/~crockett/120/Rorty-Contingency.pdf >> <http://web.augsburg.edu/~crockett/120/Rorty-Contingency.pdf> > > > Every language has an ontology, i.e. things it talks about. But that doesn't > mean that it assumes those things are primary. Bruno wants to criticize > physicists for assuming there's something he calls "primitive matter". But > this is just his straw man. In fact physicists almost uniformly assume that > the stuff in their theories has some deeper explanation and is NOT primary. > There's a difference between saying a metaphysics assumes things and saying > that it assumes things which are "primary". > > Brent > > > > My point is that all physicists assume a metaphysics whenever they articulate > or adopt a theory, because all theory is expressed in a language.
I am not sure of that. They do it like we all do it implicitly in our everyday life, but I have no find a paper in physics, which use any metaphysical hypothesis. It is only the materialist philosopher who does that. Now, some physicists do make a bit of metaphysics after pension, or as amateur, but then they are no more doing physics. They do philosophy/metaphysics/theology. > > As for "primary matter" (in particular, the "primary" part) this is all I > know about what that means: > > https://www.britannica.com/topic/hylomorphism > > Hylomorphism, (from Greek hylē, “matter”; morphē, “form”), in philosophy, > metaphysical view according to which every natural body consists of two > intrinsic principles, one potential, namely, primary matter, and one actual, > namely, substantial form. > > Matter and form, however, are not bodies or physical entities that can exist > or act independently: they exist and act only within and by the composite. > Thus, they can be known only indirectly, by intellectual analysis, as the > metaphysical principles of bodies. > > > What I call codicalism is basically a version of hylomorphism, except my > "form" is "language", and there is no potential/actual distinction. I can be OK with this. We are ourself words in the biochemical language, locally. But eventually we are the meaning of those words, and that meaning is independent of the language. Locally and terrestrially, those words have their importance of course. With mechanism, words like “body” “code”, “numbers”, “finite 3p things” etc. are all kind of synonymous. Bruno > > - pt > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
