Today I am busy. I will answer this at ease later.

Have a good day,

Bruno



> On 20 Nov 2018, at 00:44, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:24 AM Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be 
> <mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> wrote:
>  
> > The notion of model “modelises” the notion of reality.
> 
> I see. No I take that back I don't see. What does that mean, how would things 
> look different if it were the other way around, what if the notion of reality 
> realizes the notion of model?
>  
> >> that is like using English to talk about the English word "cat". Whenever 
> >> mathematics tries to model something that is not itself, like something 
> >> physical,
> 
> > Which might be part of mathematics. 
> 
> If so  you could make a calculation without the use of matter that obeys the 
> laws of physics and you would be the richest man who ever lived.
>  
> > Unless you assume [...]
> 
> What I assume is you are NOT the richest man who ever lived.
>  
> >> But, I hear you say, the numbers 11 and 13 are prime and that fact is 
> >> unchanging and eternal!  Well yes, but the English words "cat" and "bat" 
> >> rhyme and that fact is also unchanging and eternal.
> 
> > Not in the same sense, and if you make things precise, for mechanism, a 
> > theory with bat and cat rhyming can be Turing universal,
> 
> If both English and mathematics are Turing universal then both are just 
> languages and everything mathematics can do English can do, although perhaps 
> a little less eloquently    .   
> 
> >> Mathematics can't even identify all true sentences about arithmetic much 
> >> less become the master of physical reality. We know  the sentence "the 4th 
> >> Busy Beaver number is 107" belongs in the set of true sentences, but what 
> >> about "the 5th Busy Beaver number is 47,176,870"?  It's either true or its 
> >> not but will you or I anybody or anything ever know which one?  Nobody 
> >> knows and nobody knows if we'll ever know, but we do know that nothing 
> >> will ever know what the 8000th Busy Beaver number is even though its well 
> >> defined and finite.
>  
> > You make my point. The value of the busy beaver function is arithmetical 
> > well defined, but not computable, which illustrates that the arithmetical 
> > reality kicks back,
> 
> Arithmetical reality "kicked back" by saying "I can NOT identify all true 
> sentences in arithmetic", and many many centuries before Godel or Turing 
> Arithmetical reality "kicked back" by saying "I can only predict 
> approximately what a physical system will do" and with the more recent 
> development of Quantum Mechanics the approximations have become even more 
> approximate. And that is exactly what you'd expect to happen if mathematics 
> was the model and physics was the real thing because models are always 
> simpler and less complete than the thing they're modeling.    
> 
> > your argument needs your ontological commitment in some primary matter, for 
> > which there is no evidence found yet.
> 
> You've been saying shit like that for years and I still have no idea what 
> you're talking about. What exactly would you consider relevant evidence of 
> the existence of "primary matter"? I don't think you even know what "primary 
> matter" means.
> 
> > 2+2=4 even if I was not born.
> 
> But there would be no way for anything to think about 2+2=4 without matter 
> that obeys the laws of physics, there would be no way for that information to 
> be encoded, and even if there were it would be meaningless if there were not 
> at least 4 things in the physical universe.
> 
> > You seem to confuse [...]
> 
> I'm not the one who is completely befuddled by personal pronouns.   
> 
> > You are only keeping Mouloud your personal materialist credo,
> 
> That word is a bit too covfefe for my taste.
>  
> > 2+2=4 is a description in the language of mathematics about how some 
> > physical properties behave. For example, the mass of 2 protons and the mass 
> > 2 more protons equals the mass of 4 protons. But 2+2=4 doesn't work for 
> > everything, the temperature of 2 hot water bottles and 2 hot water bottles 
> > does not equal the temperature of 4  hot water bottles. Temperature doesn't 
> > add up in the same way that mass does, a different description is needed to 
> > describe what's going on.
> 
> No problem. 2+2=4 should not be applied in all context, of course. 
> 
> And physics tells mathematics when 2+2=4 should be applied and when it should 
> not be because physics is more fundamental. 
> 
> > A definition of a computation is not a computation. But can be used to show 
> > that all computation are done in the models of arithmetic.
> 
> No computation can be shown to do anything without making use of matter that 
> obeys the laws of physics.
> 
>  
> >> why in the world would you say the physics is modeling the mathematics 
> >> when its obvious that the mathematics is trying, with limited success, to 
> >> model the physics?    
> 
> > No one says that physics model mathematics.
> 
> You still don't understand the significance of what Alan Turing did in 1936
> 
> >Assuming Aristotle theology [...] 
> 
> Yawn. 
> 
> > With mechanism, physics is reducible to the theology of [...]
> 
> Sorry, I don't know what you said after this, I fell asleep.  
> 
>  John K Clark
> 
> 
>  
> 
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