On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 1:39:12 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 4:56 PM Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com > <javascript:>> wrote: > > >> Without physics reality would not need a foundation because there >>> would be no reality, there would be nothing. And nothing could be explained >>> not only because there would nobody to explain it to but more importantly >>> because there would be nothing around that needs explaining. >>> >> >> *> You are assuming the answer at the start. * >> > > I am assuming that if you ask me to explain nothing I could do so because > I am very good at nothing. > > *> None of the above is an argument that physics is fundamental, rather >> than derivative.* >> > > Nobody will ever prove that something is absolutely fundamental, but you > can show that some things are more fundamental than others. > > > *So do you think mathematical properties require things to count? * >> > > Yes I think so. And I think things are required to think. > > *> How many things to count are necessary?* >> > > More than none. > > *> Give me your reasons for why you think computations that exist in the >> universe of numbers * >> > > Computations "exist" in the universe of numbers in the same way that the > Incredible Hulk "exists" in the universe of Marvel comics. > > >> > *are ineffectual and cannot produce consciousness* >> > > One of the few things we know for certain about consciousness is it > involves change, but numbers never change in space or time; matter/energy > is the only known thing that can change. > > >> >>Forget consciousness, a computer program can't simulate anyone or do >>> anything else either unless it is run on a Turing Machine made of matter >>> that obeys the laws of physics. >>> >> >> *> You have provided no proof to back up this statement.* >> > > I don't have proof but I have lots of examples of matter doing arithmetic > but nobody has an example of arithmetic doing matter. Matter/energy may or > may not be fundamental, but it's certainly more fundamental than > arithmetic. > > *> Spacetime does not change in time or space either.* >> > > Of course it does, if the universe contains anything in it then the block > universe can't be exactly the same all the time everywhere! If we ignore > Quantum Mechanics as Minkowski and Einstein did when they came up with the > block universe idea then time and space are the 2 fundamental coordinates > of existence, and as we move along the time axis we see a change in the 3D > shape of the Block Universe and if we see a different 3D shape we know it > must be a different time. > > >> > *The universe is a static four dimensional block. * >> > > That could only be true if the universe contained no details. That could > only be true if the universe was infinite unbounded and homogeneous in both > space and time, and that is the best definition of "nothing" that I know of. > > *> If you think other (past or future) moments of time need to stop >> existing for you to experience change,* >> > > I think it is a reasonable assumption but please note you are already > assuming the existence of time, otherwise the past and future you speak of > would have no meaning and it's not even clear what you mean by "stop". > > > then you can experience change without the past moment existing. >> > > If it's not a change in experience with respect to time what is it with > respect to? The only alternative is a change in experience with respect to > space, but such a move would take time. > > John K Clark >
Computations "exist" in the universe of numbers in the same way that the Incredible Hulk "exists" in the universe of Marvel comics. Great quotable! - pt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
