On Saturday, January 5, 2019 at 12:02:53 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 6:13 AM Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com 
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Saturday, January 5, 2019 at 4:26:11 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4 Jan 2019, at 17:25, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Physicists today (as I've observed) are not (for the most part) real 
>>> materialists.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That is true, and physicists have rarely problem with the consequence of 
>>> Mechanism. Now, some physicist can be immaterialist, but still physicalist 
>>> (like Tegmark was at some moment at least). The physical reality would be a 
>>> mathematical reality among others, but with computationalism, the physical 
>>> reality comes from a more global mathematical phenomenon based on the 
>>> behaviour/semantics of the material mode of self-rereyence (involving 
>>> probabilities, i.e., for those who have studied the self-referential modes 
>>> available, the []p & X modes, with X being either p, or <>t, or p & <>t).
>>>
>>> This makes mechanism testable, and if quantum mechanics did not exist, I 
>>> would have thought that Mechanism is already refuted.
>>>
>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> "Physicalism"/"Physical" are words that needs deprecating, as they can 
>> mean (to some philosophers of science) "can be reduced to physics", and 
>> physics is what is currently-accepted in the physics scientific community.
>>
>> (When I use "physical", I mean it in the sense of being "explainable" by 
>> physics.)
>>
>> It gets worse: "In this entry, I will adopt the policy of using both 
>> terms ['materialism' and 'physicalism'] interchangeably, though I will 
>> typically refer to the thesis we will discuss as ‘physicalism’."
>> https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/
>>
>> Better to just use "materialism" and reject the use of "physicalism" 
>> (unless it refers to a the particular meaning of "can be reduced to 
>> physics"), though materialism has a "weak" and "strong" definition.
>>
>> Galen Strawson defines what "hard-nosed materialism" is:
>>
>>     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvHVo6TslV4
>>
>>
> The important distinction, which may be lost in your definitions, is 
> whether "primariness" is assumed or not.  These diagrams I made highlight 
> the difference:
>
>
> *Primary Physicalism (Physics is at the bottom, and cannot be explained or 
> derived from anything else):*
> [image: primary-physicalism.png]
>
> *Non-Primary Physicalism (Physics is not at the bottom, and can be 
> explained or derived from something more fundamental):*
> [image: non-primary-physicalism.png]
>
> You could also be agnostic on the question, let's call someone with that 
> belief a "*Primary Physicalism Agnostic*".
>
> Currently, scientists have collected zero evidence in favor of Primary 
> Physicalism. So if you strongly believe it, you might want to consider why 
> it is you believe in something so strongly despite there being no evidence 
> for it.
>
>  
>
>>
>>
>> But what exactly would be a "test for Mechanism"?
>>
>>
> If you replace one or more of your neurons with a mechanical yet 
> functionally equivalent replacement and experience no change in 
> consciousness.
>
> The existence and utility of cochlear implants can be seen as a loose 
> confirmation of digital mechanism.
>
> Jason
>



A question remains though: Can chemistry (or biology for that matter) be 
reduced to physics? By that it is typically meant "Can problems of 
theoretical chemistry be reduced to The Standard Model?"  

See  *List of unsolved problems in chemistry*
-  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_chemistry

Except for a leap of faith ("The Standard Model can explain all of these 
open problems in chemistry"), there could be chemical properties not 
reducible to physical properties.

If that is the case, what is physical (as I have defined physical) does not 
cover what is chemical (much less biological).

Matter includes all levels of "stuff": physical, chemical, biological, 
psychical. So materialism is the agnostic position: It doesn't matter 
whether everything can be reduced to the physical or not.



In "replace one or more of your neurons with a mechanical yet functionally 
equivalent replacement", mechanical could of course include biomechanical 
(as defined in *synthetic biology*), as there was no restriction of 
"mechanical".


- pt

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