On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 8:04:20 AM UTC-6, Jason wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 4:47 AM Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com 
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, January 5, 2019 at 6:02:39 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 2:05 PM Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Saturday, January 5, 2019 at 12:52:19 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, January 5, 2019, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday, January 5, 2019 at 12:02:53 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 6:13 AM Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 5, 2019 at 4:26:11 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 4 Jan 2019, at 17:25, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Physicists today (as I've observed) are not (for the most part) 
>>>>>>>>> real materialists.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is true, and physicists have rarely problem with the 
>>>>>>>>> consequence of Mechanism. Now, some physicist can be immaterialist, 
>>>>>>>>> but 
>>>>>>>>> still physicalist (like Tegmark was at some moment at least). The 
>>>>>>>>> physical 
>>>>>>>>> reality would be a mathematical reality among others, but with 
>>>>>>>>> computationalism, the physical reality comes from a more global 
>>>>>>>>> mathematical phenomenon based on the behaviour/semantics of the 
>>>>>>>>> material 
>>>>>>>>> mode of self-rereyence (involving probabilities, i.e., for those who 
>>>>>>>>> have 
>>>>>>>>> studied the self-referential modes available, the []p & X modes, with 
>>>>>>>>> X 
>>>>>>>>> being either p, or <>t, or p & <>t).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This makes mechanism testable, and if quantum mechanics did not 
>>>>>>>>> exist, I would have thought that Mechanism is already refuted.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Physicalism"/"Physical" are words that needs deprecating, as they 
>>>>>>>> can mean (to some philosophers of science) "can be reduced to 
>>>>>>>> physics", and 
>>>>>>>> physics is what is currently-accepted in the physics scientific 
>>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (When I use "physical", I mean it in the sense of being 
>>>>>>>> "explainable" by physics.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It gets worse: "In this entry, I will adopt the policy of using 
>>>>>>>> both terms ['materialism' and 'physicalism'] interchangeably, though I 
>>>>>>>> will 
>>>>>>>> typically refer to the thesis we will discuss as ‘physicalism’."
>>>>>>>> https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Better to just use "materialism" and reject the use of 
>>>>>>>> "physicalism" (unless it refers to a the particular meaning of "can be 
>>>>>>>> reduced to physics"), though materialism has a "weak" and "strong" 
>>>>>>>> definition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Galen Strawson defines what "hard-nosed materialism" is:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvHVo6TslV4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The important distinction, which may be lost in your definitions, is 
>>>>>>> whether "primariness" is assumed or not.  These diagrams I made 
>>>>>>> highlight 
>>>>>>> the difference:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Primary Physicalism (Physics is at the bottom, and cannot be 
>>>>>>> explained or derived from anything else):*
>>>>>>> [image: primary-physicalism.png]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Non-Primary Physicalism (Physics is not at the bottom, and can be 
>>>>>>> explained or derived from something more fundamental):*
>>>>>>> [image: non-primary-physicalism.png]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You could also be agnostic on the question, let's call someone with 
>>>>>>> that belief a "*Primary Physicalism Agnostic*".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Currently, scientists have collected zero evidence in favor of 
>>>>>>> Primary Physicalism. So if you strongly believe it, you might want to 
>>>>>>> consider why it is you believe in something so strongly despite there 
>>>>>>> being 
>>>>>>> no evidence for it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But what exactly would be a "test for Mechanism"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you replace one or more of your neurons with a mechanical yet 
>>>>>>> functionally equivalent replacement and experience no change in 
>>>>>>> consciousness.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The existence and utility of cochlear implants can be seen as a 
>>>>>>> loose confirmation of digital mechanism.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A question remains though: Can chemistry (or biology for that matter) 
>>>>>> be reduced to physics? By that it is typically meant "Can problems of 
>>>>>> theoretical chemistry be reduced to The Standard Model?"  
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See  *List of unsolved problems in chemistry*
>>>>>> -  
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_chemistry
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Except for a leap of faith ("The Standard Model can explain all of 
>>>>>> these open problems in chemistry"), there could be chemical properties 
>>>>>> not 
>>>>>> reducible to physical properties.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't that require chemical reactions that violate physical laws?
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If that is the case, what is physical (as I have defined physical) 
>>>>>> does not cover what is chemical (much less biological).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matter includes all levels of "stuff": physical, chemical, 
>>>>>> biological, psychical. So materialism is the agnostic position: It 
>>>>>> doesn't 
>>>>>> matter whether everything can be reduced to the physical or not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In "replace one or more of your neurons with a mechanical yet 
>>>>>> functionally equivalent replacement", mechanical could of course include 
>>>>>> biomechanical (as defined in *synthetic biology*), as there was no 
>>>>>> restriction of "mechanical".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Mechanism is the belief that any mechanical replacement will do, 
>>>>> regardless of what that mechanical component is made of, so long as that 
>>>>> component is functionally equivalent to the part replaced.  Mechanism is 
>>>>> the belief held by 99% of scientists, who say they brain is a machine, 
>>>>> and 
>>>>> there is no magic in it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> The concept of some theoretical chemists (vs. some theoretical 
>>>> physicists) is that there are laws of chemistry that cannot be reduced to 
>>>> laws of physics. Not that they 'violate' laws of physics. What physics 
>>>> governs still works.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Chemistry is nothing beyond the interactions of particle physics, just 
>>> as biological interactions are ultimately chemical.
>>>  
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If 'function' (in "functionally equivalent") includes experiential as 
>>>> well as just informational functionality, then that something else.
>>>>
>>>> The brain is a machine: A biomachine. The human is a biocomputer:
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_biocomputer
>>>>
>>>>
>>> But all computers are equivalent.
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>  
>>>
>>>> No problem there.
>>>>
>>>> - pt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>> "Chemistry is nothing beyond the interactions of particle physics, just 
>> as biological interactions are ultimately chemical."
>>
>> That is a statement of faith (the list of "unsolved problems in 
>> chemistry" above should bring some skepticism), almost like one would see 
>> in a church's catechism.
>>
>>
> "Chemical" is a human invention to summarize and simplify natural laws 
> concerning larger systems of particles.  I don't know what it could mean to 
> say there is a chemical phenomenon which is not a result of natural laws.
>
> You may say this is a statement of faith, but it is as much a statement of 
> faith to believe unsolved problems will be explained as the result of 
> chemicals (which again are just particles) are doing things their 
> underlying particles would not do on their own as particles.
>  
>
>> See http://www.eoht.info/page/Anti-reductionism on "anti-reductionism" 
>> and those that are "skeptics" or the reductionist belief.
>>
>
> There are of course emergent phenomenon, like clouds and dogs. And I think 
> it is likely consciousness (as it is with a computation) is something that 
> cannot be not reduced and explained in terms of its parts.  But no one has 
> demonstrated a biological organism violating a chemical law, nor a chemical 
> reaction violating a physical law, just as in a large and complex 
> computation, at no time does this computation permit the CPU to do 
> something it should not.
>  
>
>>
>>
>> "But all computers are equivalent."
>>
>> See 
>>
>> Call for Abstracts
>>
>> The First International Workshop on Theoretical and Experimental 
>> Material Computing (TEMC 2019)
>>
>>
>> https://www.cs.york.ac.uk/nature/SpInspired/workshops/TEMC-2019-Tokyo/CallforAbstracts.html
>>
>> Material computing  exploits unconventional physical substrates and/or 
>> unconventional computational models to perform physical computation in a 
>> non-silicon and/or *non-Turing paradigm*.
>>
>>
> I think by "Non-Turning" they mean in a manner dissimilar to the 
> architecture of Turing's machines. In none of those unconventional 
> computing paradigms is it possible to compute anything that a Turing 
> machine could not compute. If there were it would be huge news as it would 
> overturn one of the most widely and deeply believed principals in computer 
> science.
>
> When someone says the mind or brain are computational, it is commonly 
> misunderstood to mean that the brain works like a computers.  This is not 
> what is meant, however.
> What is meant is that computers are universal behavior replicators. In the 
> same way a record player is a universal sound producer. You would not say 
> the brain works like a computer any more than you would say Pavarotti's 
> vocal cords work like a record player.  Yet you could say a record player 
> can produce the same sounds as Pavarotti's vocal cords, and similarly you 
> could say a universal behavior replicator (a Turing machine) can replicate 
> the behaviors of a brain (as it can replicate the behaviors of any finite 
> system).
>
> Jason
>





Of course *physical, chemical, biological, psychical, sociological *laws 
(to run the spectrum) are all human inventions. 

The questions are about how these laws interrelate (and terms like *emergence, 
reduction, downward causation* are used).

In terms of processing, I distinguish *experience processing* from *information 
processing.*

https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2018/10/14/experience-processing/
https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2018/12/14/material-semantics-for-unconventional-programming/

- pt

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