> On 2 May 2019, at 20:15, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> wrote: > > Any finite execution trace can be replaced by a finite lookup map.
The problem is that, given a (finite) program, you cannot bound the trace in advance, so for most programs, you cannot translate it into a finite look-up table. It is also a problem for a program which never stop, but still make important processing, like a universal dovetailer. It is finite program, which generate and execute all program. How would you build a finite look up table to encode it? > So it is always finite. So up to N steps you can implements with a finite > lookup table. Unless you have an infinite execution you have to have an > infinite lookup table...but you can approximate the execution with a finite > lookup table up to N steps... To fill it, you have to execute a correct > implementation in the first place. In that sense I am OK, but the look-up table will be infinite in most case, and belongs more to the semantic than to the syntax. I shout that you were claiming that we can replace any program by finite look-up table. Apology if I misunderstand you. Bruno > > > > Le jeu. 2 mai 2019 à 17:44, Bruno Marchal <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> a écrit : > >> On 1 May 2019, at 21:41, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Map lookup is a valid implementation for any program you can conceive, >> albeit a very ineffective one… > > ? > > An implementation must be finite. For most programs, to implement them with a > look up table would need an infinite look up table. > > Bruno > > > > > >> The chinese room is such implementation... And as much as my parts are not >> me, i'm not the sum of my parts... >> >> Quentin >> >> Le mer. 1 mai 2019 à 20:34, Terren Suydam <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> a écrit : >> >> I would argue for "pancyberpsychism" (I'm no good at naming - is there a >> name for that already?) which is to say that there it is something it is >> like to do information processing of any kind. However, the quality of the >> consciousness involved in that processing is related to its dynamics. So >> banging on a rock involves a primitive form of information processing, as >> vibrations ripple through the rock - there it is something it is like for >> that rock to be banged on. For ongoing consciousness, some sort of feedback >> loop must be involved. A thermostat would be a primitive example of this, or >> a simple oscillating electric circuit. The main idea is that consciousness >> is associated with cybernetic organization and has nothing to do with >> substrate, which might be material or virtual. >> >> In the Chinese Room example the cybernetic characteristics of the thought >> experiment lack any true feedback mechanism. This is the case with most >> instances of software as we know it - e.g. traditional chess engines. There >> is something it is like to be them, but it's not anything we would recognize >> in terms of ongoing subjective awareness. One could argue that operation >> systems (including Mars Rovers) embody the cybernetic dynamics necessary for >> ongoing experience, but I'd guess that what it's like to be an operating >> system would be pretty alien. >> >> With biological brains, it's all about feedback and recursivity. Small >> insects with rudimentary nervous systems are totally recursive, feeding >> sensory data in and processing it continuously. So insect consciousness is >> much closer to our own than ordinary Von-Neumann architecture >> data-processing. >> >> As nervous systems get more complex, feeding in more data and processing >> data in much more sophisticated ways, the consciousness involved would >> likewise be experienced in a richer way. >> >> Humans, with our intricate conceptual, language-based self-models, achieve >> true self-consciousness. The self-model is a quantum leap forward, giving us >> the ability to say "I am". The ego gets a bad rap but it's responsible for >> our ability to notice ourselves and live within and create ongoing >> narratives about what we are, in relation to what we aren't. This explains >> why ego-dissolving psychedelics lead to such profound changes in >> consciousness. >> >> Terren >> >> On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 3:02 PM Quentin Anciaux <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> Le mer. 1 mai 2019 à 18:13, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> a écrit : >> How is a computer conscious ? Magic ? Are you even aware of the Chinese Room >> argument ? >> >> Yes, and how is the chinese room not conscious ? Because you have to >> associate it either to the dumb person acting as processor or the rules ? >> The chinese room as a whole information processing unit is conscious. If you >> ask it, it will tell you so... Prove it is not. >> >> Quentin >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list >> <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list >> <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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