> On 20 Jun 2019, at 13:19, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List > <[email protected]> wrote: > > But there are no legs in the first place. "Legs" are from the very start just > ideas in consciousness.
You are right. Eventually, legs and atoms are first person plural. As I said. But locally and pedagogically, it is not good to insist on this at the start. Now, self-reference, be it 1p, 3p, 1p-plural does not requires the existence of anything, except the numbers or programs. > > Also, self-reference doesn't "happen". Self-reference eternally is. No problem with that either. But an explanation must start from where everybody agrees, and those willing to accept Digital Mechanism, if only for the sake of the reasoning, have no problem with addition and multiplication on numbers. > All the consciousness in the world are self-reference. No problem. But many things that you say can be proved to be necessary the case. It is not an assumption, it becomes theorems, when we bet on Computationalism (aka Digital Mechanism). > Self-reference is no-thing (in the sense that it is not a thing, Of course. > it is unformalizable) Absolutely OK, despite it is amazingly meta-definable (by rich Löbian machine *on* less rich Löbian machines). That is why at some point it is crucial to understand that Mechanism is a theology, which is the science of what is, from our personal perspective, necessarily extending properly science. > and every-thing (all the consciousness in the world) both at the same time. Now that does not make sense to me, but this is because your ontology is unclear for me. Your text is not quite helpful, and I might ask you to formalise your ontology and perhaps the phenomenology too, to make precise sense on this. It is unclear how you would test experimentally such statements. Bruno > I'm not sure if you grasp this subtlety. > On Thursday, 20 June 2019 14:08:55 UTC+3, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > First person self-reference happens when a human say I feel pain in my leg, > even if he has no leg. It refers to our own private subjective experience. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/84effd21-b225-4fd9-aa0b-9a2d32f76342%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/84effd21-b225-4fd9-aa0b-9a2d32f76342%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/FD2CDA1D-980C-4F28-BC20-9C489C704932%40ulb.ac.be.
