On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 12:33:05 PM UTC-5, telmo wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, at 16:01, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 4:52 AM Telmo Menezes <[email protected] > <javascript:>> wrote: > > > > > *Nobody ever used the Turing Machine as an architecture for > computation,* > > > Everybody's architecture for computation without exception can be reduced > to a Turing Machine and nobody has ever found anything simpler, aka more > fundamental, that could be implemented physically. > > > > Well... meet the domino computer: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino_computer > > > > > > *outside of theoretical domains. Not even Turing himself, for the > simple reason that it would be terribly inefficient.* > > > Yes, obviously a paper tape would be very very slow so for economic > reasons a vast number of bells and whistles are added, but those are all > just a matter of engineering convenience, so if you're just talking about > philosophy, and for most on this list that's all they're interested in, > then they are all irrelevant. > > *> Computers to this day mostly follow the Von Neumann architecture,* > > > Most do some don't, such as Dataflow Machines or Graph Reduction Machines. > But talking about the difference between Von Neumann architecture and non Von > Neumann architecture is like talking about the difference between a steam > engine and a gasoline engine while Turing was talking about the laws of > thermodynamics. > > > Exactly, that is my point. > > > *> It seems clear to me that Turing Machines, Van Neumann Machines and > GPUs are just implementations of something which is purely abstract -- > computation.* > > > Turing Machines are in a more fundamental category than the other two. > All Van Neumann Machines and GPUs are Turing Machines but not all Turing > Machines are Van Neumann Machines or GPUs. > > > The only equivalence used in Computer Science is in completeness: Van > Neumann Machines and GPUs are Turing Complete, in the sense that they are > as general a computational device as a Turing Machine. I never heard or > read anyone before claiming that Turing Machines are physically more > fundamental, in the sense that they are at some root of a category to which > modern digital computers belong. My question to you then, is this: > > How do you decide if something is a Turing Machine or not? Is Domino a > Turing Machine? What about my brain? What about the billiard ball computer? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billiard-ball_computer > > > > *> You insist that nobody has been able to produce a computer without > using matter. I agree. What you refuse to consider is the possibility that > matter is the dream of computations,* > > > All theories need experimental conformation and the above theory has been > tested many times and the results have always been negative, people have > dreamed of computation but nothing happens, the law of the conservation of > mass/energy has always remained true regardless of dreams. > > > Most people can remember having dreams, I imagine you can too. Then you > know that your brain is somehow capable of generating a "fake" reality just > for you. So can you ever prove to yourself that you are not dreaming? > > Telmo. > > This takes a bit of practice to develop the habit, but if you do it long enough you can actually "wake up" in your dreams and become lucid. (And conversely, prove you are not dreaming when awake.) During your day to day wakeful life, three or four times a day, look at a piece of text... then look away for a few seconds, then look back at the text. When awake, the text you read will be the same on each sample, because the text is "real" and exists. In your dream, if you do this, you will find that the text changes each time you try to read it again. Probably because your brain cannot make a persistent, law like reality on its own, but needs something (i.e. reality) to remain consistent. Try it! It's fun...
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